Cheeseburger Gothic

JB's deadline workout.

Posted July 10, 2009 by John Birmingham
Well, we're back as you can see. The host got hacked, but had the sense to have maintained proper back ups.

I've been spending the day reliving my youth as a pol sci post grad, reading heaps o' journal articles about the coming superpower rivalry in the Indian Ocean. Why? Cos someone's playing me to.

I sent the draft manuscript away this week, but rather than having time off I had to swing into this hasty commission. It's interesting, after having been on the novel/blog treadmill for so long. But at this very minute I've just got back from a family lunch at CrossTown Eating House, so until that settles there wont be much deep thought from ol' JB.

Instead I'm gonna blow off a few minutes doing something I've meant to do for a while. A few folks who've seen me the last few weeks have commented on how much less JB there is to go around. About ten kilos less so far, but I'm looking to trim another 4-5kgs to get down to my fighting weight of low to mid eighties.

Partly it's cos I'm about to go back to the dojo and didn't want to embarrass or, more likely, injure myself. Partly it's because I did enormous damage to my health and fitness during last year's restaurant review season and I only dropped weight again after that little pnuemonia incident in January. I figured that with being on deadline for a few months I could either harden up and regain control, or lose it totally and finally and embrace my Inner Blob.

Deadlines are like that. They can go either way. This time, thankfully, it broke the right way and been able to pull my belt in five notches so far.

So for those who asked how...

Well, lemme tell you.

Not eating in cafes and restaurants three times a day is a start. But not everyone has that problem.

I switched to just having a coupla pieces of fruit for breaky. Usually a banana and a mandarin with a cup of tea.

Then a light lunch, often just a sandwhich.

Then I'd eat what i wanted for dinner, but less of it. In the past I've always filled the plate right out to the edge. Now I try and leave half the surface uncovered (without cheating by piling up the goodies on  other side).

I'm still drinking a glass or two of wine at night (what parent doesn't!) but I've cut that right back from 4-5 glasses, and it helped that when I finally put pedal to metal on After America I had one month alcohol free. Lost two kgs right there.

The exercise though is what's really helped.

I started very light, after being so sick early in the year. Kicked off with just 20 mins of relatively gentle walking, a few push ups and sit ups, some very light weight training.

I've gradually increased that to the following work out.

10 mins dynamic stretching.

15 mins tredmill, maximum incline, interval setting.

20 mins floor exercises. 5 burpees. 16 rotating crunches. 1 burpee. 8 jumping box squats. 1 burpee. 10 diamond push ups. 1 burpee. 20 low side lunges. 1 burpee. 5 dorsal raises. 1 burpee. 8 inverted press ups. 1 burpee. 10 Bulgarians each leg. Repeat all. (A burpee is a nasty bit of gear where you get into a push up position, before pulling your knees quickly up to your chest and driving up thru your heels so you leap about a foot off the ground).

15 mins heavy bag work. (My fave bit. Lot of anger to work out by this point).

25 mins various weights, with the sets broken up by front, side, crescent, roundhouse kicks. 20 reps each.

Stretch and cool down.

I've try and get a session in 5-6 times a week. It takes for fucking ever, but it's been stripping the rest of the blubber away from me and once I get down to my target weight I'll cut back to 3 times a week + 1 sesh at the dojo.

Anyone who has any favorite work out tips (I'm looking at you Lobes) feel free to leave 'em below. I need to break this routine up every now and then.

As for me, lunch is settling, so it's back to the Indian Ocean.

57 Responses to ‘JB's deadline workout.’

CraigWA mumbles...

Posted July 10, 2009
Good to hear. At least you haven't decided to do the diet to try and lose weight. Just the sensible eat less, do more.

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Lobes mumbles...

Posted July 10, 2009
Thats a good 90 minute workout. If you're doing that 5-6 times a week I'm not surprised you've gone in so many notches. Well done.

It all sounds pretty good but I agree you want to mix it up a bit so it doesnt get too repetitive. I like the use of the burpee. I do a lot of those myself. I dont bother with crunches anymore, find them useless to tell the truth and have replace them with burpees almost altogether but I digress.

Something a bit different if you dont allready use one get a swiss ball (giant inflatable ball) and try and involve it into every part of your routine. ie feet on bench with hands on ball for push ups. Lying back on ball for crunches, sitting or kneeling on ball when doing weights etc. I use examples from your current routine but you can make up your own.

Also I'm reluctant to recommend running as I hate it and its such a punishing exercise to recover from but short distances are usually ok. For explosive power shuttle sprints are really good. I set out cones (conveniently spaced trees actually) about 10m apart. Sprint to 10m touch the ground then sprint back touch the ground, sprint to 20m, then 30m, then 20m then 10m then 20 burpees. I usually do that 3 times. 4 if I'm feeling frisky.

If you can stay above 75% effort for the whole set you're doing well.

My main exercise these days is SUP paddling though. Its a great workout. Much better than any gym and most sports I've played. Its a lifestyle though.

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John Birmingham has opinions thus...

Posted July 10, 2009
In fact I just bought myself a swiss ball this week. Been meaning to get one for a while. Used them quite a bit in the past but the dog chewed thru the last one we owned.

I've just started to integrate it into the overall routine, but yes, you're right about using it with weights etc. I'll have to look online for vids and tips.

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Chaz asserts...

Posted July 10, 2009
yeah i could see you expending a lot of anger on the heavy bag if you've cut down on your drinking....

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Bangar asserts...

Posted July 10, 2009
Me I'd be happy to see the underside of the ton, so I'm envious, congrats JB.

PS yes I could stop drinking but I'm a mean sober.

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damian mutters...

Posted July 10, 2009
I have been wanting to get back into the "waving a sword around like a fool" method of fitness training, and for various reasons don't care to go back the group I'd been doing that with, for now anyway. I'm actually quite interested in having a go with the group who practice in Hawthorn Park, which would be in your stomping grounds.

These guys do German longsword, which is a kind of two-hander that weighs 2-3kg. From the bouting I used to do with two-handers in the previous group I played with, I can attest it's about as much fun as you can have standing up. Sparks and fluid motion and all. Drills are fantastic core muscle workouts, similar to what you'd get with kettlebells. And bouts are like squash, with 2-3kg racquets...

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John Birmingham is gonna tell you...

Posted July 10, 2009
Hawthorn Park you reckon? Damn. Never seen that. Have to keep my eyes peeled. Sounds like something the kids would love to watch.

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DrYobbo would have you know...

Posted July 10, 2009
Smaller plates. It's stupid but it works. Makes more of a difference than almost anything else.

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WalkingShaw swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted July 10, 2009
Thought about the pool? I swim laps, great way to freshen the body up, great for increasing lung capacity and strengthening back/shoulders. You've also got some great outdoor climbing along the river in Brisbane [not like the freezing conditions in climbing gyms in Melbourne!] - it's dynamic, explosive and works completely different muscle groups. Maybe good as a change up?

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John Birmingham mumbles...

Posted July 10, 2009
Ben, my wife is a swimmer, and I totes recognise the benefits, but I hate it. I'm no good at it. And I've built a gym under the house where I can train without having to organise child care. Parenthood is the enemy of fitness. It's partly why I dont run any more. (And partly cos, like Lobes says, running is dull and hurts a lot).

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HAVOCK mutters...

Posted July 10, 2009
mm, at 68 kgs I guess weight is not an issue, neither is being selective on what I eat. also, playing sport ( nil in winter), but its a bitch the first two weeks back and pre season starts shortly. I have no doubt the hamstrings, quads and calves will bitch like crazy and I reckon I'm gunna steal portions of your regime I think JB.

Swiss BALL, thats what they re called, I have one, got it for rehab on the knee. If you like squats, try wicket keeping..fucking heaps of'em, occupational hazard.

Maybe one day I might have to worry about my weight, but to be honest I would LOVE another 10-15 kgs.

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HAVOCK puts forth...

Posted July 10, 2009
OH, and the WIFE being a swimmer...YEAH, mine was as well, its like a fucking outboard motor in the pool and not only does she kick my arse, its fucking depressing as well!

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Moko reckons...

Posted July 10, 2009
I want a machine that I can strap myself in to and just let it do the weight loss/fitness thing for me.

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Matthew K has opinions thus...

Posted July 10, 2009
JB: "I’ve built a gym under the house"

Ah, so THAT'S the secret. Well done for being so self motivated that you train well alone.

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damian mumbles...

Posted July 10, 2009
John: http://collegiuminarmis.com/classes/

I intend to make it along to either the 26th or the 2nd after.

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WalkingShaw asserts...

Posted July 10, 2009
Parenthood is the enemy of fitness. True! Man, please tell me it gets better - twin girls almost at 2 only thing they like doing is swimming, dancing and at the moment screaming! So swimming is only exercise that my wife, kids and I can do together!

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Lobes mutters...

Posted July 10, 2009
Pick something and master it. I suggest either skipping or chin ups. If you went hard on chin ups you'd be able to bust out 10+ in a row within a few months. Not many people can do that. But start on about 3 or so.

If you're willing to lay out the dosh get a rowing machine. The Concept2 ergometer is the best by far. If I could only afford one piece of indoor gym equipment thats what I'd get. Better than a treadmill IMO.

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Naut would have you know...

Posted July 10, 2009
I have been thinking about hanging a chinup bar for a while now.

I'm a fan of running because if you do enough of it you can eat what you want and still lose weight.

I tend to do pyramid training, pushups 2 then hold 4 then hold etc up to 10 then back down again.

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Matthew K mumbles...

Posted July 10, 2009
Lobes: "The Concept2 ergometer is the best by far. If I could only afford one piece of indoor gym equipment thats what I’d get."

Word. I have thought the very same thing many times.

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Lobes is gonna tell you...

Posted July 10, 2009
Helps to have a rowing background or at least some coaching on the device though. I have seen so many people rowing like absolute muppets and not exercising effectively at all.

Just noticed the Concept2 website has a world rankings list. Back when I was right into ergos I would have given the top 100 a very good shake. Theres your challenge JB, try and get in the top 100 for your age group. Looking at the times even making Top 10 for Australia is very achievable.

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damian puts forth...

Posted July 10, 2009
Personally, I'd love to have a good rowing machine but it'd be no substitute for getting on the water. I actually hope to build my own one of these days, but that's another story.

JB, the German longsword group I was talking about are these guys: http://collegiuminarmis.com/classes/

I probably wont make the 26th but possibly the sunday after

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damian mumbles...

Posted July 10, 2009
Oh, I did mention it. Duh, no short term memory loss here

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lostatlunch swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted July 10, 2009
just making the rest of us look bad.. AGAIN.

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HAVOCK puts forth...

Posted July 10, 2009
NO DARKMAN..there are those of us who are FIT, not FAT and require no EXTRAORDINARY training to stay the NORMAL shape. We can eat what we please and our body weight varies about 2 kgs if we are lucky. These people are like gods, I should know, I am one of them

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Murphy ducks in to say...

Posted July 11, 2009
The fruit and carb for breakfast is probably the best way to go. I did that for years during the Rent-A-Donut era and managed to maintain a tolerable weight level.

China-India issue, I read a recent article in Foreign Affairs (and it figures that I can't remember the title) which suggested that the United States could play the role of intermediary between the two growing naval powers, creating a coalition security force from the navies around the Indian Ocean. The author seemed to suggest that if our moderating influence was present, it would mitigate the traditional tension between India and China, prompting them to look at their common interests in a secure and stable ocean going environment.

Wish I remembered what the title was. I read it this past spring so I suspect it is on your stack. Ref Foreign Affairs Journal.

Respects,

Murph

On the Outer Marches

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Matthew K swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted July 11, 2009
All depends on the quality of those in power doesn't it Murph. The recent bollocks about "racist" atacks on Indians in Oz and the attendent rabble rousing by Indian pols showed the level of sophistication we can expect from there. Painful as it may be to admit but undemocratic China might have better government than democratic India.

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sibeen swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted July 11, 2009
I can't be bothered with all that crap. I pull on a pair of shorts (why are shorts always in pairs?), do 60 odd sit-ups, 40 odd push-ups, 8 to 10 chin-ups and then hit the running track.

Mind you, the sprogs do put the kybosh on this on a regular basis; but I do find that when I've gained an extra pound or two (sic) that it only takes me about a month to shed those unsightly few kilos by running.

I like running, I really do. It's my equivalent of the heavy bag. All my worries and anger seem to drain away with the copious amount of sweat that I manage to produce. Sometimes it's strap the iPod to the arm and listen to some decent music whilst pounding away, on other days it's podless and some decent thinking can go on.

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girlclumsy ducks in to say...

Posted July 11, 2009
Oh, goodness. This is very impressive - and everyone else's tips as well.

I'm so bad fitness-wise. I've tried various things over the years and lose interest and/or motivation.

I enjoy going for long walks with the Wah at a reasonable pace, and I've a few home exercise videos that I pop in from time to time. But you've all given me inspiration that I should be doing better!

Mind you - I just did an impro show tonight that had lots of action and running about, and I feel like I've done a proper workout. Maybe I just need to perform a lot, lot more. :)

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mckinneytexas is gonna tell you...

Posted July 11, 2009
Keep in mind that what works at 20 doesn't work at 30, at 40 and so on. Degeneration occurs regardless of training although musculature can compensate significantly. North of 45, ligaments, rotator cuffs, cartilage, disc material, etc. start to fail. Bicycles, treadmills, etc. for heart and weight control, medium weights, stretching, etc. for the rest.

And cutting back on the booze, as you've noticed. Glad to see you are in the health mode. Moderating your work load? Not likely. Oh well.

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NukemHill would have you know...

Posted July 11, 2009
I like it. I've just started working out again myself. Started losing weight last Fall, after getting on Concerta. Reduced my appetite, and the weight has been peeling off. Haven't been working out 'til now, 'cause I still had too much poundage for my knees, ankles and feet, which couldn't take the punishment. I'm running on the treadmill now, and rowing on the rowing machine (trading off each day, so I'm not doing too much to either my lower extremities, or my back). Up to 30 minutes on each, which is phenomenal for me. The weight loss has clearly made a difference in my capacities.

I think I'm going to start working some karate moves into my routine. Your mention of it above really struck a cord. I'm also ordering a new exercise ball for home stuff. My previous one met recently with a sharp object wielded by an unknown junior assailant. Crime unsolved. Perpetrator remains unknown. Oh, well. I know itwern't the twins. They're pretty honest about the mayhem they instigate.

I peaked at 242 lbs. I'm 6' 2" so, while not devastating on my frame, it was clearly too much. I'm currently floating between 217 and 222, depending on the day. My target is to be between 205 and 210 by the beginning of September. My eldest will be Bar Mitzvah'd then, and I want to look good, both for myself, and also for him. He's worked his ass off for this, and I want him to be proud of me, so I'm willing to work my ass off for him.

Best of luck, JB. If you can tolerate it, I highly recommend rowing. It's absolutely brilliant for your back muscles, and a great cardio workout. Once I get into really solid shape, I'll probably row every day, and tack on jogging every other. When I was in grad school, I got into a workout jag, and put in a solid 9+ months of just about every day. I had previously been suffering from back problems. But I went over a year-and-a-half with absolutely no pain during and after that stretch of exercise. My bad for not keeping with it. But now I'm pretty committed to making it a lifestyle issue.

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NataliatheRussianSpy reckons...

Posted July 11, 2009
Lots of uphill walking with handweights...keeping your middle sucked in and your spine stretched. Great for general core strength.

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damian reckons...

Posted July 11, 2009
mckinney: "And cutting back on the booze, as you’ve noticed."

Noooooooooooooooooooo!

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John Birmingham asserts...

Posted July 11, 2009
Nukem', you inspire me. I had exactly the same probs starting off. I was carrying so much weight that it was actually dangerous to consider any exercise. I think that's why people get put off. Because to begin with progress is so slow and incremental. Congrats on your efforts.

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John Birmingham has opinions thus...

Posted July 11, 2009
Unfortunately I have no rowing experience. Used the machines a bit in my old gym, but I was probably one of those wallies doing it All Wrong.

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GT asserts...

Posted July 11, 2009
re: Indian Ocean & Murph's article, I think the local Financial Review picked up that article and ran with it in their Friday Review supplement a few weeks ago. If interested, I would hazard a search would bring it up ?

Cheers

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NBlob puts forth...

Posted July 11, 2009
I'm 6ft 2 & 105 Kg (Approx 220Lbs I think.)

Lots of my friends are doing the late 30's stress about weight. I weigh myself about 3 times a year. While I have never been overly concerned I know that I'd benefit from losing 15, but I'm not about to make my life a misery about it. Not being a beer drinker & not having much of a sweet tooth puts me ahead of the game.

I have a good mate "Innapropriate Donny" who has shed > 30 kg in the last 12 months and gone from "Heavy set" to "Weekend at Dachau." I'm seriously concerned about his weight loss. Cutting out 2 cans of Coke per day was good, the 150kms on the bike per week was understandable if a little excessive, what really freaks me out is his no carbs after 5pm policy.

No carbs! Why not just slit your freakin throat? What's next no lamb?

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savo mumbles...

Posted July 11, 2009
Love the rowing machine. The treadmill can't keep up with rapid changes in speed and effort and the stationary bike feels like, well.. I have something of an endomorphic shape so the bulk is where I sit.

On the weekend I like to do what me exercise physiologist calls Centuries. It's as much aerobic as weights: pick as many exercises as you need (15/20 whatever)and do one hundred reps nice and fast. Weights not too high but don't be a girl about it, it's only 100 reps. Beats the crap out of doing a fixed time because you know that you still have to do a certain amount, with a timed amount you can slack off and still reach your goal. Some faves are weighted punch outs, situps (15kg on chest) and a count down 1 star jump run 15m 1 push up run 15m 2 star jumps run... 10 star jumps run 10 push ups run 9 star jumps same back down to one. Star jumps are my nod to burpees (God I hate burpees) Some of you have see me and so should realise getting both feet off the ground at the one time is a major major achievement.

Doing it with a training buddy helps (I've 2 skinny mates my age - skinny bastards!), have a well balanced and correctly programmed series of work out sessions that spread the workout load around the body is essential, just "knowing what works for me" don't cut it.

Breakfast is fruit (narnie for recovery) and carbs in the form of a Sanitarium 'Get Up & Go' = 2 weetbix and milk.

Lunch a salad sango

Dinner anything but a lot less of it.

Oh yes and anti inflamatories and analgesics.

Senator & JB: I haven't kicked all of that last 25kg but I buy off the rack now :o)

About India and China playing around the Indian Ocean with the US on the other side, I seem to remember Tom Clancy doing a novel based on that, them threatening to take over the Southern Economic Zone (Australia)

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damian ducks in to say...

Posted July 11, 2009
savo: Rising Sun, but it was Japan not China. Not a particularly compelling thesis really. Some of the free-trade talk was practically insulting to non-USians who attempt to engage in said practice. The book was notable in that it predicted using a large plane with full fuel tanks as a bomb, annihilating everyone in a building (actually, Congress I believe, thus turning Jack Ryan into the POTUS).

Give me Jenkins over Clancy any day ;)

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Bangar swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted July 11, 2009
Savo, a Dale Brown book perhaps?

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beeso mumbles...

Posted July 11, 2009
i train with a few Aussie touch boys who put me through a fair bit of pain, lots of sprints. Thursday we did a 12 min interval run, 5x150 on the 30 1min 10x70m on the 30 sec 15x30m on the 15sec. Absolutely killed, especially the ones into the wicked headwind.

However its not shifting the weight and anyone whos read the food blog knows what my attitude to food is, none of that no carbs after 5 madness, so I bit the bullet and I'm doing 3 bike classes a week at the gym.

we'll see if that helps...

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lostatlunch reckons...

Posted July 11, 2009
Havock... you are still using a lot of caps since th4 whole holocost thing... have you been off the prozac? God has also been kind to me and maintan a lovely 90kg's with minimal effort & gross neglect and as I hit 40, I am being more aware of taking care of it..

Did god bless with with a 9" penis as well?

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HAVOCK mutters...

Posted July 11, 2009
SAVO, the dogs you were talking about were, India, china and IRAN!, that was Debt of Honour and it was HALF a plane load of jet fuel. It was because the JAPANESE..MAFIA / Industrial mega corp players had built nukes and threatened to utilise them, these guys were in cahoooots. Stage one was NEC ( northern economic zone), from memory and then Southern . Executive Orders is on the NTH one,.....I THINK..NO sorry. That book deals with IRAN / IRAQ. The BEAR & THE DRAGON, is based on the Northern one. But they theme is ambitions both those players have ( china / india ) , they are not against each other..YET.

However, in real life...I suspect its one that has yet to be played out, I've said it before elsewhere, possibly here as well. have a look at where the majority of India's water flows from and who just happens to be sitting on top of it!.

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damian ducks in to say...

Posted July 11, 2009
Yes, Debt of Honor (not sure what Rising Sun was. Crichton?) Definitely thinking of the same book, but I won't read Clancy more than once. Which is twice more than one should read Cussler, I'd add.

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Lobes has opinions thus...

Posted July 12, 2009
Rising Sun was a Crichton book about industrial rivalry and espionage between USA and Japan.

Was turned into a good movie with (I Think) Sean Connery and Denzel.

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NBlob mumbles...

Posted July 12, 2009
Back on topic, Very Very interesting & disturbing program this morning about fructose & it's role in obesity & type 2 diabetes.

Will make me think twice about putting a poppa juice (juice box) in The Bobettes lunchbox everyday.

Podcast isn't up yet but the transcript is there & podcast coming soon.

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/ockhamsrazor/stories/2009/2621415.htm

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Patricia reckons...

Posted July 12, 2009
JB - I used to do corporate rowing. If you come in one arvie to QUT, we can use one of their rowing machines. I can coach you on technique, posture and rhythm.

Which makes me think I should go back to rowing. Lobes is right. A rowing machine is WAY better than a treadmill. I hate treadmills. I hate running. But rowing? *sigh* one of the greatest things invented.

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Lobes swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted July 12, 2009
Technique, posture and Rhythm with Patricia

Think about it JB....

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HAVOCK would have you know...

Posted July 12, 2009
wesley snipes was the other fella Lobs, with sean. Its taken half an effin hour to think of his god dam name..lol

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savo would have you know...

Posted July 12, 2009
Vixen 03 was Cusslers best book, with each progressivly filled with more and more crap. Take Note Birmo, that is how to screw a franchise/universe.

With Clancy must say I prefered the Clark stories to the Ryan ones with Red Storm Rising being his best and having neither in it.

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damian mutters...

Posted July 12, 2009
My copy of the 1951 edition Admiralty Seamanship Manual has a marvellous(ly camp) diagram of correct rowing posture through the stroke. Not meant for a sliding seat, but the principles are the same. I'll scan and post it somewhere sometime.

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damian mumbles...

Posted July 12, 2009
savo - you name the only one that I actually enjoyed reading. All of his others made me angry for some reason or other, usually just some stupid cultural ignorance or other that the twerp couldn't be bothered researching. At least, that's what I seem to recall - I think I've mostly successfully whiskey-scrubbed those memories.

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damian swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted July 12, 2009
Done. It's actually from HMSO Manual of Seamanship Vol. II, Admiralty 1951.

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Lobes would have you know...

Posted July 12, 2009
Raise the Titanic was a fairly entertaining romp. I like most of the Dirk Pitt novels but he has now killed off Pitt and replaced him with someone named Kurt Austin. No good.

Damien not a bad rowing diagram. the key picture is figure 6 ('The Release'). Its important to remember that your hands should be moving around in an oval (or ellipse) when viewed from side-on. Its not just back and forth. And you notice the first few diagrams he is putting all the force through the oar with his back. He doesnt try to bend his arms until the oar has some momentum through the water.

Diagrams 1 & 2 show perhaps the most crucial moment 'The Catch'. You're not trying to rip the oar through the water at this stage. You want a nice clean entry which you acheive just by releasing pressure off the oar and let the blade drop in with a plop. Check the height difference in his hands btw Fig 1-2.

Damn... I used to coach rowing at Uni. Didnt realise this stuff was so seriously embedded even a decade later. Hmm, probably should have started my explanation with the catch though, but you get me going on racing starts and I'll never stop.

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NBlob mumbles...

Posted July 13, 2009
I always new my Dad was a pretty smart dude, then I heard how he picked up my mum - by coaching the womens rowing team.

If you like your women big & strong it's a gold mine.

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damian puts forth...

Posted July 13, 2009
Lobes - what impressed me most is how clearly it shows him keeping his back straight at all times, and his arms as much as possible.

I think the only bit missing so far from this discussion is rhythm. When I last rowed it was High School, and they used to get us to do 4:1 for cruising, and scaling up to 2:1 and 1:1 sprints for racing.

When I was getting to the gym regularly a couple of years ago, I'd do a "virtual" 30km or so in a session on the machine, mostly cruising with a 3:1 (ie, 4/4 time) rhythm, broken up a bit with 1:1 sprints. 4:1 could only work in the gym if the background music is 'Take 5', on a 45rpm single played at 33rpm, IMHO.

Note to Birmo - the numbers are the ratio of time the blade is out of the water (7 to 10) and in the water (1 to 6). The larger number is the time out of the water.

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Annabel Candy mutters...

Posted July 13, 2009
Well done on your fitness program and weight loss.

I have a swiss ball I love. The Aussie queen of the swiss ball is Lisa Westlake who has a string of books like Get On The Ball and DVDs such as Hard Core Strength which is full of sweaty muscle men. I recommend you borrow them from the library to see if you like them.

I enjoy doing fitness DVDs as it's like having personal trainer and they make you push yourself. Get a heap of them so you don't get bored and to make sure all your muscles get worked on. I try to alternate days of weight training and cardio such as power walking (look how trim it keeps Kim Day-Knight!) and biking.

Keep up the great writing and exercising!

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jp mutters...

Posted July 21, 2009
I'm a big fan of pilates -- especially pushups etc, and a lot of stuff with a power band (big elastic band, the ultimate travel-gym for book tour).

The 300 workout is good, as is this one:

http://www.esquire.com/the-side/video/dr-oz-workout-0509

Pretty much everything Esquire does has helped this writer stay alive.

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Respond to 'JB's deadline workout.'

Book recommendation.

Posted June 22, 2009 by John Birmingham
Every deadline I inevitably get distracted by one book I shouldn't read, but do anyway. This deadline it was The Destroyermen by Taylor Anderson. It's alt hist, WW2 based, sort of. Anderson takes a couple of clapped out WW1 era destroyers, pressed into service at the start of the Pacific War, and sends them through a time warp, wormhole, Transition Event, whatever, into a parallel earth where humans may or may nor have evolved, but where they certainly aren't the dominant species. There are two of those, a sexy, peace loving, half cat half monkey species. And a bunch of hungry orcs who eat them.

The destroyermen find themselves drawn into this conflict as the most technologically advanced posse on the planet, even in their clapped out old destroyers. It's interesting to watch how he deals with resource scarcity.

I enjoyed this piece of top shelf airport novelage immensely. Anderson uses the chaos of the war's early days on Earth 1.1 to cram a disparate bunch of characters onto his boats before sending them thru the event horizon. The action is very well handled, and I liked the character development even if, like WoC, there are probably too many speaking roles. The author did make another mistake that I recognise from own early work, shifting in and out of multiple POVs without adequately sign posting the change in the text. I was lucky enough to have Steve Saffel at Del Rey pull me up on that before we got into print. TA wasn't, but then he only does it a couple of times and it may well be that only other writers would notice.

Anyway, if you're in the way of needing some alt hist explodey goodness to tide you over until After America, do yourself a favour and check out The Destroyermen.

As for me, I got another five chapters to write, a Penthouse column overdue, and I lost most of today to a hell meeting.

On the upside, I took my belt in another notch today.

31 Responses to ‘Book recommendation.’

Brian mumbles...

Posted June 22, 2009
Keep away from Parliament Play Time. You're whole day could get blown. Half the net is watching the Utegate play offs.

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Tarl swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted June 22, 2009
The first two of the Destroyermen novels are pretty good. I lost interest halfway through the third, though.

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Chaz reckons...

Posted June 22, 2009
Interesting, similar to an idea i had a way back about a WW1 troop convoy getting sucked into an alt fantasy world.

good news about the belt, however you're going to have to breathe out eventually!!!

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Moko asserts...

Posted June 22, 2009
Your recommendation of The Winter of Frankie Machine was spot on. One of the best books I've read. It's fighting for a top five spot - for me - with Tales of The Otori: Across The Nightingale Floor, by Lian Hearn (who is a chick). I've read Frankie Machine two and half times now lol. I'll check this one out. Cheers.

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Paul Nicholas Boylan swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted June 22, 2009
Sounds good. Can't wait. Will find it.

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El Coqui reckons...

Posted June 22, 2009
John

I like it too, third was not as good but still I want to get the 4th. Right now, I am reading in my kindle, One Second After by Forsham.

The premise is that the US is hit by a series of high altitude nukes and the EMP wave transforms the whole country from first to third world in a moment.Makes Katrina looks like a children tea party in comparision.

However, like John, at the moment I am also writing. I just posted another 17th century NCIS story draft in 1632 slush, check it out. My story The Duchess is a Leatherneck was posted on issue 24 of the online magazine Grantville Gazette.

Plus I am hearing a CD from an Australian rising start Hayley Legg, check her out because she possess the whole package, looks, voice and talent. Her CD is on ITunes and she had posted music videos at YouTube.

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John Birmingham puts forth...

Posted June 22, 2009
Moko, The Winter of Frankie M is perilously close to literature, which Destroyermen ain't. It is, however, great fun.

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NBlob has opinions thus...

Posted June 22, 2009
When you get the architect in to re-model this place, can we have a dedicated wing for "I read & really enjoyed..."

Recomendations from other readers are so much more valuable than the publicity mavens spins & spells.

Particularly when a book purchase is a saved for event, not a consumable item like for some around here. (I'm lookin your way Orin)

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lostatlunch swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted June 22, 2009
Someone is going to get beaten by his fanbase if he does not get back to work.

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Flinthart is gonna tell you...

Posted June 22, 2009
Yay for the beltnotch. You're still doing a Penthouse column?

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Tarl puts forth...

Posted June 22, 2009
Something you just reminded me of - I have to subscribe to Penthouse. I'm too embarrassed to admit I'm doing so for your articles, I'll just pretend that I'm buying it for the porn.

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Therbs would have you know...

Posted June 22, 2009
Tagged the tome, will check it out. Sounds like fun.

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savo is gonna tell you...

Posted June 22, 2009
"...a Penthouse column overdue..."

I knew I got it for the articles!

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Orin is gonna tell you...

Posted June 22, 2009
Just reminding Havock that he has to go read Enders Game. As always I recommend River of Gods by Ian McDonald. I haven't put up any reviews recently because I've been doing more writing than reading ... but I will be getting back to the polity series now.

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yankeedog ducks in to say...

Posted June 22, 2009
I've not read any of 'The Destroyermen' because it seemed too much of a ripoff of the AoT basic idea.

Maybe I'll write a book about a Navy ship that gets sucked into a time/space vortex and travels to a parallel universe where intelligent snails rule, or Lichtenstein is the major power in the world, or Keith Urban is a real talented singer. Everyone else is doing it, after all...

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sibeen swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted June 22, 2009
Just reminding Havock that he has to go read Enders Game.

A nice read.

Until I saw this in the last few days.

http://home.austarnet.com.au/petersykes/topscifi/lists_books_rank1.html

This list has Ender's Game as the best S.F book of all time.

What utter, utter crock.

It also has 'Speaker for the Dead' on the list. The fucking thing was unreadable. I suspect a shit load of Mormons voted...that's my only explanation.

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Murphy asserts...

Posted June 22, 2009
You know, I can't remember the last SF novel I picked up that really got me excited. I keep roaming the shelves, picking up titles, shaking my head and putting them back. I think the last thing which tripped my trigger was Titanicus by Dan Abnett. Unfortunately it happened at the local library when I was sans library card (I had my NYC card, which wouldn't work there) and some greasy teen probably got it.

Right now I'm reading Pacific Fury by Peter Thompson and I have to admit, it is one of the better history books I have read in the last three years. I'm looking forward to reading some Peter Hamm next.

Respects,

Murph

On the Outer Marches

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Murphy is gonna tell you...

Posted June 22, 2009
I should qualify my above statement by saying that I enjoyed Without Warning but that goes without saying. :)

Respects,

Murph

On the Outer Marches

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mckinneytexas mumbles...

Posted June 22, 2009
Steve Stirling and his group are touting a book called The Foresight War in which two historians, one British and one German, go back in time to the mid-30's when each gains the confidence of highly placed persons and from there, both sides mend the errors of their strategic and logistical ways. Bad for France and the low countries, the Ruskies and no Dunkirk--I am unclear as to whether the Holocaust goes forward--is what I take from the reviews. I've ordered and will post if it's worth the $$$. Will give Destroyermen a try. Glad John is losing weight, though I suspect it's mostly his serial illnesses.

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HAVOCK on lappy asserts...

Posted June 23, 2009
well, I be here in WET, its pisin down Camperdown Vic and on BLOODY EFFIN DIAL UP NO LESS! Sheez, get onto that fuckwad sol boy or his god dam next of kin will ya and get that roll out completed. Even the cows are faster than the net down here. Sounds like a good book , however, I have been informed by ORIN that..End of Days,ooops, Enders game is me next purchase. This might well mean that post the consumption of this I can say, I offer a balanced and unbiased view on all things, being well read and all.

PS, just a short note: After todys , almost wasted exercise of draggin me carcass down here, that bloody blunty tomorrow had better be a cracker or I just might hav to AMP up the GOIN ORF bit. Now given its eight god dam below, I have dragged me arse all over Vic and its raining effin cats and dog at the mo I figure we might toddle off to bed. At least I mnaged to shave 30 minutes of the old man best transit time down here though, mind you it cost me an exra half a tank of fuel..lol, but thems the brek for speedieness...

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Matthew K is gonna tell you...

Posted June 23, 2009
Foresight War eh? I'll check that out.

I am also feeling vaguely ill and have been losing weight, I am turning (back) into a pencil neck geek.

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Robert asserts...

Posted June 23, 2009
Destroyermen recommended as a light summer read, by John Birmingham. Cool Karma, for it was a recommendation for light summer reading in Time magazine that I sought out and read Weapons of Choice.

I do believe Birmo has just "paid it forward."

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Patricia reckons...

Posted June 23, 2009
Houston we have a problem in Blunty. The number codes are not refreshing. You may have a problem updating new comments, JB

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Quokka swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted June 23, 2009
Hey JB

Thanks for the tip. We are out bayside being renovation refugees, and The Bloke has been reading on the train. He came home very confused while he was reading WW and said that he lost touch with reality several times and kept forgetting where he was. His mind wandered several times during meetings and he nearly muttered 'But America is GONE' during one particularly dull gathering of the white shoe brigade.

The bloke won't normally won't read anything longer than the newspaper, I have been trying to get him to read books for years, without success...so I'm still just shaking my head at the turnaround.

I'm speechless. Thanks for keeping him entertained, you have no idea how much I was dreading 2 months of living with cranky commuter man.

Cheers, Q

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John Birmingham is gonna tell you...

Posted June 23, 2009
Ah thank you Quokka. It's stories like that which keep me at the keyboard... well, actually it's the royalty cheques and Playboy Bunnies. But I do enjoy stories like that.

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damian reckons...

Posted June 23, 2009
"On the upside, I took my belt in another notch today."

Go you! I let mine out one today :(

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El Coqui would have you know...

Posted June 23, 2009
Guys:

Clear your 2010 TV watching schedules.

Tom Hanks and Stephen Spilberg "Pacific" is coming,as seem by the first teaser, it looks like a worthy successor to their acclaimed "Band of Brothers". I am sure that their AO would be a matter of particular interest to our OZ comrades.

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andyf has opinions thus...

Posted June 24, 2009
ive read the foresight war,, pretty good

just read an online book, fan fic thing, cracking

http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/390-2990.aspx

heaven and hell declare war on earth..

we dislike this..

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Matthew K puts forth...

Posted June 24, 2009
McKinney, here's a taster of The foresight War.

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/TFW%20Extract.htm

Not bad, historically accurate and credible, description and characterisation a bit thin, a lot of professional weapons porn (Brits go with a Bullpup semi-auto Bren).

Yes I will buy it. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. Cheers!

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Mark Orth puts forth...

Posted June 25, 2009
I just finished "Without Warning" last night, very good book. You have quite an imagination. It is the first book of yours that I have read. You style is kind of a cross between Tom Clancy and Robert A. Heinlein, Looking forward to the next book in the series. When is it due?

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Friendless mumbles...

Posted June 26, 2009
Hey Birmo, which bookshop(s) do you recommend for buying your books? I'd like to support someone who supports you.

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Respond to 'Book recommendation.'

WW question from Jose.

Posted May 31, 2009 by John Birmingham
He was wondering where the US might get it's military equipment in future, after the current stocks run down. It's an interesting point, as Reconstruction is taking up so much of the Federal Budget and a military industrial complex is a helluva thing to run on the cheap.

Below is his question:

"What you think about Armidale class patrol boats for the new US Coast Guard post wave. No having the need for NIMBY and frankly being in the beggars can't be choosers bussiness, means that the New US may go around the world for what they need insterad of answering to local politics. Example, Russia make a jet powered sea plane, that it would come handy for the USCG enforcing hands off policies with any free booters."

72 Responses to ‘WW question from Jose.’

Tarl is gonna tell you...

Posted May 31, 2009
The general answer is that once a nation isn't an industrial power that can build its own weapons, it tends to buy what it can find on the open market. At the moment, the second largest arms seller behind the U.S. is Russia, followed by some European nations (France and Germany, as I recall). Israel is in there for some specialized niches.

All of their weapons productions would probably have ramped up in the... disorder... following WW. If the rump US can pay for weapons, they'll sell. Otherwise, not.

There would probably be purchases of airframes from both Aerospatiale and Ilyushin, possibly with electronics from Israel. They probably don't need to purchase ships in the short term, the navy's ships should last long enough to get industry going again.

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Orin puts forth...

Posted May 31, 2009
Are you talking about the Russian Ground Effect planes (wiki: Ekranoplan)? I thought that Russia, like China, had been hobbled in WW. Anyone who is in a position to sell kit to the US would seem to also be in a position to assert themselves geopolitically. Why would the Empire sell Tie-Fighters to the Rebel Alliance?

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Moko puts forth...

Posted May 31, 2009
If I was a South American country/Alliance I'd be thinking about a slice of the pie.

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Orin ducks in to say...

Posted May 31, 2009
The other question is of course how will they pay for it? It isn't as though the alternate-Universe US is exactly going to be raking in the cash. Also, didn't the US have a rather substantial foreign debt at the time of the wave? If they turn around and say "well suckers, we ain't paying anything back" who will lend them more money for toys?

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WalkingShaw mumbles...

Posted May 31, 2009
Surely because the military is largely intact, the 'brass' would want to trade technology with it's pre-wave alliance partners. British, German, Japanese and Australian contractors would benefit largely.

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Leo euler puts forth...

Posted May 31, 2009
"By Orin, May 31, 2009 @ 2:21 pm

The other question is of course how will they pay for it? It isn’t as though the alternate-Universe US is exactly going to be raking in the cash. Also, didn’t the US have a rather substantial foreign debt at the time of the wave? If they turn around and say “well suckers, we ain’t paying anything back” who will lend them more money for toys?"

Leases of land (for cities) and/or immigration/colonization rights? Land would be perhaps the most valuable thing America would have to offer, but the possible problems are a very scary prospect.

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Brian reckons...

Posted May 31, 2009
Hmm . . .not sure if its as a big a problem as it could be.

The USAF graveyards in the desert areas are huge.

Case in point. Vietnam Era Phantoms are being dicked out as robot controlled platforms. A 35 year plus airframe. Its where parts for the F111's come from. In some cases these are pristine aircraft. Built and mothballed as spares or ready replacements.

Shipping is a problem. They are forever rotting away before your eye's. Saltwater environment.

The USN is screwed for large shipbuilding capability. It has the yards - but the trained workforce is gone. I worked at Williamstown Naval Dockyard back in the '70's - it struck me where the workforce came from ie Belfast, Malta and New Zealand. Specialist ship builders from specialist Naval yards mostly ex-Brit. The US institutional Naval buid expertise is gone.

Similarly armoured vehicles. Tank cupola's. Armour production. Naval armour belting. Gone.

Japan could fill the gap.

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HAVOCK puts forth...

Posted May 31, 2009
There are a couple of issues in adopting RUSSIAN equipment, not the least of which is reliability, supply of parts, or a lack of continuity in that, commonality with existing US equipment and then toss in the state of Russia. I’m pretty sure that the Russian Government will have its own issues to deal with, let alone trying to supply the US.

As for the availability of ship builders, lets not forget, that persons bailing out from the Military and those that are retrenched as I would suggest the US downsizes somewhat will need employment. I think availability of labour will be the last problem.

Given the Armidale is a relatively small craft, its perfect, commonality and interoperability with US equipment is already their, so two large boxes are ticked already.

Then add, the US will want a stable base, the Aus government would also jump at the chance, its what we will get in return, and whether its cash, land, a blow job from the First lady, is really irrelevant. Unless the US no longer was an Allie to Aus a deal will be worked out.

The base Armidale is a good ship, fast, good sea keeping abilities and readily upgradeable as well. Let’s not forget also, they are not the same size as frigates, so with a ramp up in construction facilities I could see this being met. The Austral facilities in Tas will also be intact, Cats are fast, the US has them and I wonder if a slightly smaller armed version would not be put on the books as well.

Boeing, DSTO and the likes here could quickly I suspect come up with a solution, I cant see the US going to Russia, maybe South Africa, although I’m not up to speed on their A/C industry.

As for Bone yard A/C, yep, lots there, but recommissioning A/C from the bone yard takes time and manpower, more so, expertise to do it.

At the point in time we are talking about, I would be hunting for F111’s, especially as we have ALL the TECH knowledge and capability here in OZ for those birds. That’s a cheap, re-readiness of SAC, buts its also maritime strike, birds don’t cost a shit load on the ground, well a lot less upkeep costs than Boats, destroyers and so forth.

Bone yard also has a massive P3 stockpile as well. We have significant expertise in that arena as well, so for a surveillance point of view, we could surge with those units to.

I would also be looking at secure communications equipment manufacturing, if you can have reliable, secure coms, then you could install them on a vast array of vessels, add some fire power as well . I am specifically thinking of all those large luxury yachts that have no owners anymore, very capable of patrol and interception duties, most big ones have a helo pad and Rhibs of a sort. They just need some bang sticks and comm’s to complete the picture. That’s a rapid, cheap expansion of capability if taken up I think, certainly in the short term.

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HAVOCK puts forth...

Posted May 31, 2009
JB, its not just the Armidale class either, Austal also have the following and these are shipped OS, to customs as well.

16 metre police boats for New South Wales

22 metre police boats for New South Wales

22 metre Coast Guard boats for Kuwait Ministry of Interior

37.5 metre naval patrol boats for Yemen Ministry of Defence

38 metre Bay Class patrol boats for Australian Customs Service

56 metre Armidale Class naval patrol boats for Royal Australian Navy.

they, given other issues around the planet would possibly be VERY well placed

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Chaz mutters...

Posted May 31, 2009
*cough* britain*cough*

considering frances' little problems and the decline of germany. The only major arms exporter will the UK.

Now personally i think the leclerc is a better tank than the challenger but beggars can't be choosers.

Also the Uk still has a functioning aerospace industry that can probably ramp up production at that moment in time.

I'd say though that the US would have to pay in tech transfers, whih could mean that the Uk military finally gets the kit it deserves.

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HAVOCK mutters...

Posted May 31, 2009
CHAZ, Normally I would have said YES, but Hasn't the poms gone all, we'll look after ourselves and closed borders and all sorts of shit?...and we know you lot can't build boats, lost it after they stopped making them outta wood, well, actually after the Hood got its arse Kicked...

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Chaz reckons...

Posted May 31, 2009
H, from WW there's no indication (from my memeory) one way or another as to the status of the special relationship.

However you can't deny that if the UK is untroubled by warfare (assuming the 1st Armoured Div etc got back to blighty from saudi) that the UK suddenely gets a fillup in it's status. And it's one of the top arms supply countries in the world. if that industry is either intact or in mothballs (which some of it was) then it's game on. Also the UK via BAE systems has probably the best relationship with US arms companies...

As for boats, Type 23 is the best FFG afloat at the moment and the new type 45 would give an ADW a run for it's money. Finally the pommie SSBN's are arguebly getter than their seppo counterparts. the astute isn't perhaps quite as good as the virginia but it's close...

H in the edn if the seppos offer tech the poms will take it, esp with US bases still on soil, possible long term

trade and instability in europe

IMHO of course!

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HAVOCK reckons...

Posted May 31, 2009
Mate...I would never cast aspersions, throw much ot toss out a line..you know me, i'm far far to serious to even consider something like that. BUT,

With regards to medium / lge hardware, yeah i fully agree, its possibly a sign of our smaller water craft expertise ( and I'm not saying the poms dont have it!), that inroads for sales have been made. I'm also going to wager that the larger yards for construction will be seriously inundated for repairs / maint , plus maybe some construction as well. that would as I'm guessing its the purp of JB's Q, allow the likes of OZ, to fill gaps. EG, supply Armidale class type boats.

OH BTW..as a small aside, have they fitted CLOSE IN DEFENSIVE systems to them boats..cant have a repeat of the Falklands now, an old man and his 12g does not constitute CIWS...IMHO.

OK Back again.

It also occurred to me, that OZ, just might become a parking lot as well, whilst heavy gear would be welcome at home ( UK), I'm not sure that all would be needed, perhaps some lgr storage facilities here as well.

The UK as you say, is set up logistically and infrastructure wise for lgr scale ops of US equipment.

Split the planet up, UK, then OZ, then the US, toss in US bases in the Pacific, with Japan lending a hand, its possibly a very, very key partnership. Also, strategically, we have depth here, lots of space that you cannot get to a base unless you go down a serious hardware path ad commit massive resources, so parking lot comes to mind again.

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Orin swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 31, 2009
Yeah - but how they going to pay? Wasn't a big part of the first book how the global economy was fracked?

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HAVOCK ducks in to say...

Posted May 31, 2009
EP, and I'm guessing that why SML, Patrol craft and not...let say, high tech, busted arse type 40 odd frigates from pommie land are being selected. lead time will also be an issue.

But I think, they by far better option would be to acquire those , now owner less sea going ,multi billion dollar yachts and up gun/ grade them.

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Murphy reckons...

Posted June 1, 2009
South Korea and Japan are two places I'd go to in order to purchase spares for the current generation of equipment. I think most naval and air power stocks can probably be maintained if they are the providers.

Of course, paying the bill is another matter. How is the United States going to refinance itself? That is a question I've been pondering as I read books covering the period from the American Revolution to 1800. The US was born in debt, heavy debt, and yet managed to find a way out of it. I suspect, given enough time and the right conditions, the post Wave US could probably effect a recovery as well.

I would say that there is so much military material laying about that I would place canibalization and stockpiling on high priority. I would send teams out to gather the gear, transport it to central points such as former automobile assembly plants and systematically strip, inventory, assess and stockpile those parts for future use.

As for the money issue, we need a historian who understands Alexander Hamilton inside and out. Someone who could explain how the Bank of the United States really worked. I have a very poor understanding of that institution at present but I suspect the US is going to need something like that in order to solve some of their problems.

The other thing is that we are going to have to get people to invest in the country. There is a stockpile of stored wealth in terms of equipment, salvage and more to the point, raw materials. I'd start there.

Respects,

Murph

On the Outer Marches

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sparty puts forth...

Posted June 1, 2009
oh please go Ekroplan! But write it better than Sebestain Faulkes did in his "Bond novel" where he really wastes a greta plane / boat in what could have been a major set piece.

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andyf puts forth...

Posted June 1, 2009
nah m civilian built boats are very vulnerable compared with mil spec ones. compartmentalization etc .

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Matthew K mumbles...

Posted June 1, 2009
Lots of specialised stuff I don't fully understand here.

But: How soon would they run out of stuff? Given the stockpiles and all, I could see them selling stuff off and building up a nice little profit.

Basically: what Murph said. The point about financial expertise especially.

One of the Top Gear team did a thing on the Ekranoplane, could have been James May. I'm sure it's on Youtube.

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El Coqui mutters...

Posted June 1, 2009
Guys:

My main intend was to therize how you will do the reequiping of the new Coast Guard. I had seen the Armidale boats in action on "Sea Patrol" and I think that they will be ideal in Caribbean anti-piracy patrols, possible with some upgunning but they are big enough to allow that easily.

For seaplanes, I was looking at Beriev products, like the A-42P Albatross or the BE 200. Those are true amphibians that also had fire fighting capabilities.

I'm not too concern about heavy stuff like tanks, etc because with the wave gone, we can access equipment and ammo storage and factories.

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HAVOCK would have you know...

Posted June 1, 2009
El C, the armidale class, is designed both for in shore, but also true off shore patrols, their sea keeping abilities given their size is excellent and possibly over kill for the majority of the work required. Whilst I would have some off these, I would look at the slightly smaller Bay class type vessels as well.

The smaller vessels, can easily handle having .50 cal mounts, maybe some Javelins and the like. that gives te smaller boats serious punch, but the can still do general duties.

The Rafael Typhoon, mounted on the Armidales is stabilised and thats good reach, but I think you can also get a SSM equipped version as well. Like you say, up gunning, and thats not hard.

Rhibs, x 2 are capable of being launched in sea state 5...thats rough, plenty of crew space, boarding parties specialists and so on. A VERY GOOD BOAT.

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Lobes mutters...

Posted June 1, 2009
The USN has enough floating assets around the world. You'd have to think rebuilding the USCG would be the first priority. But it will take a while to recreate the shipbuilding institutions so adopt PT style fast patrol boats to cover the gap. There are many thousands of high speed manoeuvrable small boats between 16 and 30 foot length already prepositioned all over USA.

Equip each of these with a driver, navigator, weapons handler and signaler. Arm them with stingers (or whatever the sea to sea equiv is) a 50 cal on the front and possibly their own predator drone supplying advanced radar and weapon range. You would get very good bang for your buck and any losses are easy to replace. The boats are available and the training required for the equipment is minimal compared to a battleship or submarine. Air support FTW.

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El Coqui mumbles...

Posted June 1, 2009
Because of the war, most of the Navy assets, I think were at sea. That's not the case with the Coast Guard. On "Fish Guts", a story by John R Johnson and yours truly at the mini-burger we establish a requirements for extra crew needed because the pirate situation in the Caribbean had degenerated back to the good old days of the seventeen century. So we now required larger boats that can accomodate the extra crew and have good inshore capabilities.

Because, I doubt that the Navy is going to risk an Arleigh Burke doing that job.

About the Beriev, I wonder if we could use western engines.

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HAVOCK has opinions thus...

Posted June 1, 2009
Pirating hey El C, yeah it would be. I'm wagering fast, very fast pirate craft as well. which means you are in th 40-50kt range of speed. Way to quick for a Armidale. Intercepts, would be best at dark, use its detection capabilities.

I would still have some, general duties, punch and stability, all good. And they would sure as shit need a greater stand off ability than the 25mm, SSM,s for sure, chaff & IR decoys too.

re engining hey..I'll think about that, Have a suspection ist harder than it looks, certainly short term.

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Tarl swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted June 1, 2009
Unfortunately for the fans of Ekranoplan, it's a concept that doesn't work all that well. It isn't particularly fuel-efficient, and it can't do bad weather. It's about as weather sensitive as any other jet, but it can't fly over the bad weather - and if it crashes into a 30-meter wave at speed, it's all over.

One thing that you absolutely need for a military patrol vehicle is all-weather capability - because pirates and other undesirables will know if there are any conditions you can't fly and take advantage of them.

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Brian mumbles...

Posted June 1, 2009
One point to be made. Mothballing large ship assets is difficult and the rot does not stop. A ship's lifecycle is like that of a mobile phone battery "Good for X years. Less if used." You get to a point where its cheaper to build a new one than try and keep the old one afloat. Hmm . . .2 years use, than put her in drydock I think it goes.

Jose? IIRC didn't that happen with the Kitty on her last mission?

Torpedo/ Patrol boats aren't a bad idea. Easy enough to base in shallow water ports.

Here's a thought. Would a seaplane and blimp strategy be a good fit for the USCG mission profile? Seriously. The US is looking at blimps for surveillance work and I know for a fact they're used in AUstralia to do building imspections. I witnessed a remote control unit over Melbournes CBD.

In some ways blimps are a good idea. They do have a heavy lift capability and they can loiter on station for a pretty good time. Useful for radio repeater work. Sufficiently low tech. Multi role. ANd the US has the lock on Helium I believe. Stevo seems to have some useful idea in that direction I believe.

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lostatlunch is gonna tell you...

Posted June 1, 2009
Salvage can keep the US military up and going for decades... The can also fall back to the reserve and 3rd grade equipment and still be a dominant world power in the After America world.

Paying for the manpower and keeping the military machine fuctioning is the problem, for every fighting man you need the army that supports him (or her). the food needs to be produced, not in 2 years when a crop has come in from the first wave, but now.

You can pay their wages with land grants, but they are pointless when you want them on active duty. I see away around this by releasing the majority of troops to civilian life as local militia's that are commanded by senior officers in each state. Martial law with loyal officers, each mutually dependent to ensure none of them get any uppity ideas about leting the South rise again, may be a way forward.

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NBlob has opinions thus...

Posted June 1, 2009
I still see massive manpower shortages.

The US government would have a short list of a bazillion jobs;

Locations & material to secure.

Restarting agriculture.

Infrastructure jobs like road clearance, dam maintenance, electrical generation & distribution.

These are all massive undertakings currently occupuying armies of labour, imagine after 12 months +++ of degradation.

Where on this 'to do list' is border security?

Would the US be devoting men & resources to policing the Caribean? I doubt it, if there were still federal treasury stockpiles of bullion lying around, or Nuke's waiting to be snaffled up.

On rereading the other day I thought about the change to an Asian led Jihad and it's significance in the light of the Arab holocaust.

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HAVOCK is gonna tell you...

Posted June 1, 2009
BAAAAAAH, its doing me head in JB. WHATS THE EFFIN TOPIC PEOPLE. NOT FOOD, NOT BULLETS, NOT HWOS GUNNA LEAVE..ITS EFFIN BOATS, TYEPS, Would the Armidale be good, would somefin else be better, A/C, types, life cycle, procurement and where from. Find me a god dam A/C Engineer for engine swaps, or conversions..SHEEZ.

Other stuff is good, but I'm guessing most background has been hashed to blody death and the author will have it ,maped out to a degree, not rally sure on that one and I sure as shit dont speak for JB. BUT, its driving me fucking nuts tha OT seems to be the ONLY fucking thing getting done.....RANT OVER..Its Monday

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Brian has opinions thus...

Posted June 1, 2009
People. Havock done had his rant. His blood pressure is now good. Well done. :))

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lostatlunch asserts...

Posted June 1, 2009
Susan "Havock" Boyle has been taken to the celebrity Priory Clinic, She had a breakdown after a topic was highjacked on the Cheesburger... again.

Now Susan, take a couple of happy pills, the point a few people have made is.. Hardware may be a furphy topic... the last thing the US is going to need for a about 10 years is hardware. Crikey, Kipper could go to some rednecks houses and have enough gear to take Alaska back from the Ruskies.

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El Coqui asserts...

Posted June 1, 2009
Dear Nowhere:

Nature aborrs a vacuum and in case that I had not stated my case clearly enough, Puerto Rico and the US Virgin Islands are still there with significant portions of the remaining US population.

So although would be impossible to do everything that probably needs to be done, at least we ought to try to maintain a presence. Doing otherwise or like you suggest is likely to come back to bite in the ass at the worst moment possible.

Going back to the original theme before Havoc blows up again, we are not talking about large acquisitions programs. I calculate at least half a dozen Armidales and four Berievs. Funding would be difficult but at least for the Beriev company, part of the deal is offering them a foothold in the American and Western markets. How much in future sales, having A-42Ps or Be-200s in Coast Guard livery be worth to them?

Lastly, I think that we have warehouses full of MREs, which are going to be woth their weigh in gold. So we are going to be doing a lot of recovery and scavenging.

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HAVOCK asserts...

Posted June 1, 2009
I'm tippin that NBOB will be able to amplify on this, but vessels left in water, thats salt water for a lengthy period tend to rust up, seize, grow all sorts of junk on them underneath. Lets also remember that the coast guard operates relatively close to shore in most cases and I would venture a lot of crews...puddled, and the boats would then motor around till running out of fuel, foundering or hitting something. then nature will literally MOVE IN. Toss in some storms and so forth and a lot of gear, outside in the elements with be badly damaged or require significant work to FIX.

Question will be. What do the pirates have in terms of gear, its going to range from piss ant stuff through to sexy, Darwin's law will ally on the high seas, even amongst pirates.

so half a D of OPV's, Armidale Class, will be loaded to the roof with gear, I for one would seriously want a SSm of som sort, maybe even some SAM's as well, not fixed SAM's, Stinger type should be OK.

Q for Bob, A 7m RHIB, just what sorta Mount could you put on one or TWO mounts for that matter?.

The other thing JB, given lad times on gear, would the US, perhaps look at initially doing a lop sided swap, say three Armidales from OZ, for a couple of bigger Can's or other gear.

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HAVOCK mutters...

Posted June 1, 2009
Are you thinking also about a forward deployed ship / vessel of some type, thats larger, better Surface search abilities, mainly stationary. Might be worth stopping in place a LHA/LHD of some sort.

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HAVOCK has opinions thus...

Posted June 1, 2009
Hmmm, just had a thought, its almost Mad Max like too I guess, but on the high seas. Multiple high speed boats, zooming around armed of course and ONE, OPV Armidale class boat fighting the Hordes. Fort Apache on the water. Of course, I am skippering this craft, which is on its way to rescue another Mil vessel, that was poorly commanded and is now disabled....WONDER WHO, the commander of THAT WAS.

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NBlob mutters...

Posted June 1, 2009
Hav the blu pills! Let one dissolve under your tongue before you beat another keyboard to death.

"Q for Bob, A 7m RHIB, just what sorta Mount could you put on one or TWO mounts for that matter?."

Mate you could go all the way up to one of those 50mm recoiless rifle jobbies you see in the back of 4X4 in the Mog, if you wanted to, but you wouldn't have much deck space left for anything else. I reckon port & starboard 50's on bungees - like Huey door gunners, would be as much persuasion as you'd want. You don't want to bog her down with armour plate - wrong boat for the job, you want something like JFKs PT boat - tin to hide behind.

El Coqui - no offence intended, I was just thinking who you could apportion out which jobs to?

We have discussed in other threads numbers of yankees left alive after the wave- Summarised as sub 4 million I think.

If the expected hordes of African, Central American & South Asian settlers are coming, well not to put too fine a point on it, the gov would trust the recent immigrants to clear highways & raise corn, but probably not to retrieve nukes from or conduct border security operations.

If I was President Kipper I probably wouldn't be devoting much in the way of resources (ships & men) to forward operations in border security. I'd probably just broadcast to the world at large that any vessel entering a 20 mile limit, outside of a couple of approved sea-lane approaches to ports, will be met with immediate overkill. Not boarding parties, not "are your papers in order & do you have any fruit or veg to declare" just immediate arse ripping inbound missiles.

Shortsighted? Almost certainly, but the to do list - remember the to do list.

Perhaps the US could contract out coastal operations. Letter of Marque style. As I undertand it the Blue Water Navy will be needed at least largely in place as a MAD type discouragement for unfriendlies.

I'm really liking retro-fitting phantoms as UAV platforms. I believe it's already done as gunnery practice units, so you are not starting from scratch.

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Brian would have you know...

Posted June 1, 2009
Hmm . . .I keep thinking about blimps. Recall these things were used in a Coast Watch during WW2. But they were pre radar. Pre a few things.

What happens to the satellite network over time? There's a limited auto station keeping capability - but they do wander without ground station instructions. Given that CONUS has lost near orbit capability - things like spy sats and GPS can and do wind down. The priority would be on the defence network. Weather forecasting has fallen into a hole. The Wave is nearly pre-satellite ground temperature recording for meteorological purposes.

Russia now owns space. International Space Station springs to mind.

I'm thinking near atmosphere stable platforms could plug a few holes. Hell of an easy target. But orders of magnitude cheaper than satellite and launch costs.

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HAVOCK would have you know...

Posted June 1, 2009
Brian, where was the shuttle when all this happened. BUT, the cape and NASA will be high priority targets to secure

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Lobes ducks in to say...

Posted June 1, 2009
Havock the entire space shuttle fleet was grounded in February 2003 after the Columbia disaster.

There was an ISS crew rotation scheduled for April (just after the Wave) using a Soyuz rocket. At Wave time the ISS had 3 pax

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NBlob swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted June 1, 2009
Brian I concur, Blimps 'R Cool.

Someone (Lobes I think) came up with a tethered blimp / aerodynamic kite unit for instant comms tower. Same idea scaled up or conventional blimp would make a pretty sweet low cost radar platform.

Combat Air Patriols (EG Murphs eg Falcon Masters @ Mini Burger) covers a lot of ground, briefly. Could an array of tethered blimp radar arrays give headsup for scrambled fighter intercept?

I think the US is going to really push the development of remote operation due to manpower shortages.

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sparty asserts...

Posted June 1, 2009
Havock - quite afew astronouts were in Russia at the

time of the wave think NASA were hedging bets on Shuttle return to flight status.

Tarl: Because Ecktoplanes are cool!

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Matthew K asserts...

Posted June 1, 2009
Susan Boyle is getting together with a well known Australian band... they're going to be called Midnight Boyle. Boom Boom!

I'm so sorry.

Anyway, Coqui. If the US has large amounts of heavy ordnance, stretched manpower and a pirate problem on it's doorstep then they would simply use a sledgehammer to crack a nut and hit their home ports with whatever they had to hand. (Moral = don't be anywhere near pirates if you want to live).

It's like, I have been known to use a 12 bore for things that might possibly been better suited to a .410 or even an airgun but I had the 12 bore to hand and... you know.

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Guy swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted June 1, 2009
As others have said, one main issue is how any new supplies would be paid for. Partly by technology tranfer perhaps, but the US would not want to send such information to a sometimes less than friendly power such as Russia. The UK is already the country which, alonside Israel, gets the most access to restricted technology (and in the After America world Israel is no longer popular with the US or anyone else). Also the book states that the UK and Japan were already bankrolling the US military day to day expenses. This was certainly in British interests to continue as long as they could, and doubtless they would be prepared to accept payment in all sorts of ways, just as the USA did from the UK duing and after WW2 when the British economy was on its knees. Worth remembering that the British government would be keen to provide as many jobs as possible for its people during what would certainly be the greatest economic crisis of modern times. Building weapons is a major UK industry and provides lots of jobs.

The UK government would be thinking short term, medium term and long term all at once. Supplying arms to the US serves all three. Ultimately the UK needs the US to be rebuilt as strongly and as quickly as possible. Obviously Britain would be keen to carve out a larger position for itself as well. All in all it would be in the best interests of both the UK and US governments to strengthen the already close military contacts ASAP.

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Brian asserts...

Posted June 1, 2009
Hmm . . .let's remember that one of the US points in WW2 was to secure all of Englands gold reserves. I could see that happening in reverse.

Securing all bullion will be a national necessity.

A recent economics piece showed that Australia did herself in the eye when she sold off her reserves. The big buyer was China. India is always a buyer. In fact gold production is almost predicated on the Indian Jewellery market.

History factoid : Where did all the Inca and Aztec silver and gold go to? India and China. True. One reason for the Anglo-Sino wars was the bleed out of bullion to China. Spain bled out via the Philipines. Minor factoid : Anyone in the Philipines who has pretence of Spanish ancestry will almost certainly have Mexican Indian ancestry as well.AKA Aztec

Hmm . . . .US strategic material stockpiles. X amount of oil and other vital materials. Copper?

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HAVOCK asserts...

Posted June 1, 2009
Brian, guys, aerostats as they are called have been around for a while, here are some links for ya.

http://www.spyflight.co.uk/Aerostat.HTM

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/airdef/tars.htm

Courtesy of Wiki

The first aerostats were assigned to the Air Force in December 1980 at Cudjoe Key, Fla. During the 1980s, the U.S. Customs Service operated a network of aerostats to help counter illegal drug trafficking. Their first site was built at High Rock, Grand Bahamas Island, in 1984. The second site was built at Fort Huachuca, Ariz., in 1986. Before 1992, three agencies operated the TARS network: the Air Force, U.S. Customs Service and U.S. Coast Guard. Congress in 1992 transferred management of the system to the Defense Department, with the Air Force as executive agent. Under Air Force management, through contract consolidation and system standardization, the operations and maintenance cost per site was reduced from $6 million in fiscal year 1992 to $3.5 million in 2007.

[edit] Technical and operational data

Primary Function: Low-level, downward-looking radar; aircraft detection

Volume: 275,000 and 420,000 cubic feet

Tether Length: 25,000 feet (7,600 m)

Payload Weight: 1,200-2,200 pounds

Maximum Detection Range: 200 nautical miles (400 km)

Operational Sites: Yuma and Fort Huachuca, Ariz.; Deming, N.M.; Marfa, Eagle Pass, and Rio Grande City, Texas; Cudjoe Key, Fla.; and Lajas, Puerto Rico. Sites located at Morgan City, La., and Matagorda, Texas, are in a cold-storage configuration. Contract management office and logistics hub are located in Chesapeake, Va.

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Lobes ducks in to say...

Posted June 1, 2009
By NowhereBob, June 1, 2009 @ 5:57 pm

"Brian I concur, Blimps ‘R Cool.

Someone (Lobes I think) came up with a tethered blimp/aerodynamic kite unit for instant comms"

The blimps idea was Savos I think

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Brian asserts...

Posted June 1, 2009
Savo - probably. Neat little dinguses though . . .got a site for them in Melbourne. Make their money doing these photo shoots. See if'n I can dig it out . . . .tomorrow.

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Murphy mumbles...

Posted June 1, 2009
There is a fleet of B-2s which could be converted for surveilance work. God knows it would be prohibitive to continue using them for combat missions. However, their long loiter time and their stealth capability might make them excellent observation platforms.

In any case, I suspect the cheaper option is to commandeer whatever civilian, military and police vessels are left laying around which are in useable order. Refurbish those vessels and put them on patrol. Given the human resource issues, wide portions of the US coastline are simply going to go unwatched.

Thus priority should be given to those coastlines which are most important and more to the point, most likely to see habitation again.

The West Coast would definitely have to be high on the list. Puerto Rico would have to be provided for. In researching Puerto Rico after Jose's initial posts here, it turns out there are significant resources there, to include a pharmaceutical firm, among other things.

One point which has not been mentioned is control of the rivers.

If one wants to assert control over the interior of the United States, one needs to control the rivers. In this order, here are the big three I'd push for.

1. The Mississippi River. If you control this, you control the center of the continent.

2. The Missouri River. If you control this, you control the approaches to the Western Plains and the Rockies.

3. The Ohio River. If you control this, you control the approaches to the Eastern Seaboard.

It is worth pointing out that the Seven Year's War/French Indian War started part in parcel due to French and British efforts to control the Ohio River Valley. During the American Civil War, a central point of strategy among Federal Commanders was to secure control of the Mississippi River for trade, troop transport purposes and in order to divide the Confederate States of America.

Thus, if I were Kipper or one of his advisors, I'd be pushing very hard to assert some level of control over riverine traffic on the Missouri and the Mississippi. I'd want to tie rail links to vital points along those two rivers, probably using Kansas City as a central focal point (and I am not saying that because I love my town, most regular readers know I do not care for this place).

In any case, I'd refurbish what small watercraft I found. There is a mountain of weapons which could be fitted to these craft as well as surplus communications equipment.

My rule of thumb, if I were in the post Wave US Department of Defense would be, "Keep it simple, keep it cheap and if possible, grab it off the shelf."

Respects,

Murph

On the Outer Marches

On the Outer Marches

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El Coqui has opinions thus...

Posted June 2, 2009
I like some of the ideas posted. Heck, I will like to see some of them turned into stories. Like the Armidale last stand of Havoc or perhaps when the Pirates saw the light, literally, of Matt. Perhaps from the pirates POV and a light comedic touch.

:)

I concur that securing the waterways are of a paramount importance, especially because some of the heavy stuff that would be looters and others with far more nefarious intentions are likely to use to move it out.

About satellites constellations and GPS, I bet that there are substations to keep them under control outside CONUS, just in case.

Going back to the Berievs, if the UK gets then and reconfigure them to western standards, I can see a win-win situation for many.

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mckinneytexas mutters...

Posted June 2, 2009
You can only fire a bullet once. This point has been made before. With considerable difficulty, Japan, S. Korea, the UK and to a degree Australia, Germany and/or France could adjust their industrial base to keep what remains of the US fleet afloat, but (1) why would they do this and (2) how would they get paid? Answer: it depends on how each country perceives the near and mid term threats from the PRC and Ruskies. With sufficient motivation, payment terms might be fairly lenient. OTOH, if both countries are reeling internally and no major industrial power sees much of an existential threat, then only cash will do. Or land. We have a lot of that.

Did WW account for the US' Med fleet? What capital ships were at harbor and what was the state of their stores? Could be that the navy could resupply once or maybe a bit more from what is on existing ships. Ditto the army, marines and air elements.

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NBlob would have you know...

Posted June 2, 2009
Murph "“Keep it simple, keep it cheap and if possible, grab it off the shelf.”

Amen brother.

Lots of opportunities there for the kind of bush mechanic, gaff tape, fencing wire & baling twine kind of operation Australians are famous for.

I know there is no opportunities for JB to do it, but I'm intrigued by the policy about face the Kipper Gov went through when the wave went from "right outside & can gobble us up any moment" to "gone."

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Murphy ducks in to say...

Posted June 2, 2009
McKinney, WW discussed US elements transiting out of the Med into the Atlantic during the later stages of the Gitmo Crisis. It was the scene with the USS Nimitz.

4th ID's equipment would have been bound for theatre when the Wave hit, a division's worth of the latest combat gear. Given the chaos of the US Exodus from the Middle East, it is possible that some of those ships could have been snagged.

Or it is possible that the equipment made their way to some friendly power, such as the United Kingdom. It could, in turn, be used to barter for capital or other concessions.

In the case of both South Korea and Japan, while they have their own designs for many items, many of those items are modifications of US designs or use US equipment (such as the Aegis radar system). Further, if one were to dig deep, I suspect we'd learn that both countries manufacture components needed for the US defense industry anyway.

Speaking of defense industries, here is something to ponder. Someone has to restart Lake City Army Ammunition Plant, which is located here in my neck of the woods. The company which runs it would have been vaporized along with everyone else. I spoke to someone who works at the plant and they tell me that while the manuals and documents are there, it is no mean feat running the place, especially if you lose the institutional knowledge to do so.

The US is either going to have to find a new small arms ammunition source or they are going to have to get Lake City operational.

Because at some point we're going to be reduced to combing through gun stores and military installations for crates of 5.56 mm. Not a happy place to be if you are an infantryman in a firefight.

Respects,

Murph

On the Outer Marches

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mckinneytexas reckons...

Posted June 2, 2009
Murph, let's take a step back on the ammo production. There is nothing magic about making cartridges if you have the facilities in place to cast bullets, manufacture powder and primers and draw the cases--pretty much every country in the world, and for sure S. Korea, Japan and Taiwan, has the capacity to grind out zillions of rounds of 5.56. Plus, that stuff is lying around everywhere here in the states. Bullets, not a problem. Corn, beans, beef and refined petroleum products, there are just some your obstacles to a functioning country.

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El Coqui asserts...

Posted June 2, 2009
Let's not forget the POMCUS equipment in Germany and Diego Garcia. So the Army and the Corps are set up. I wonder about the AF but everyone uses F-15 and 16s, spare parts and ammo will not be an issue.

Ammo stocks stored in igloos on the states and now available for official scavengers are probably enough to replace the material spend during the war. Let's not forget that with the Middle East "sanitized" by Israel, there is not going to be a need for large amounts of ammo for a while.

Especially after the US demostrated his willingness to speak softly and carry a nuclear stick.

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NBlob mutters...

Posted June 2, 2009
Not putting words in anyones mouth, but I interpreted the original Q in a longer term - perhaps 10 years.

What chance the US can restart domestic industrial capacity to a level where it can supply it's armed forces inside a decade?

I say slim.

But if still extant & unable to recapture the former industrial productivity she will be in the market for all kinds of goodies. From .50 cal rounds to warships.

If mainland China has fractured into the internal sh!tfight described in WW, I'm voting Taiwan as supplier to the stars of all kinds of millitary goodness.

Or Korea _if_ they gets proactive 1st strike sh!t on Pyong Yang's ass.

Both have massive production capacity from circuitry to warships, privatised but with V' close government ties.

Both will be pretty quick to position theselves as friends of the US with priviledges.

Detroit becomes a little Hanoi as it is being restarted by Hyundai.

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Lobes reckons...

Posted June 2, 2009
"Detroit becomes a little Hanoi as it is being restarted by Hyundai."

Umm a little Seoul maybe? Hyundai is Korean.

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Lobes mutters...

Posted June 2, 2009
And assuming they get the musical industry back running that would make Motown the capital of Seoul music wouldnt it?

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mckinneytexas swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted June 3, 2009
Lobes wins.

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Murph has opinions thus...

Posted June 3, 2009
Yes, I know 5.56 is common but Lake City produces everything for the US arsenal in terms of munitions.

In any case, I do agree that beans and fuel should take priority, to a point.

Or perhaps money. Cicero said something about it being the sinews of war. The US is going to have to figure out how to fund itself.

Respects,

Murph

On the Outer Marches

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El Coqui swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted June 3, 2009
Sell F-22 to Australia?

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NBlob has opinions thus...

Posted June 3, 2009
Doh, yeah Seoul not Hanoi.

Sorry geographic dislocation.

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Murphy swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted June 3, 2009
Considering the mish mash of American cover music I heard on the bus from Osan to TDC, I'd say that the South Koreans can help out in many ways.

Music isn't one of them. At least not anything that resembles pre-Wave US music.

Respects,

Murph

On the Outer Marches

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Brian asserts...

Posted June 3, 2009
To help with these sort of speculations it might help to preface things from the date the Wave comes down. Call it '0". Then 5AW, 10AW. 5 years After Wave.

Maritime building becomes a real issue 5 years out for instance. Conventional armaments not so much. Manpower 5AW - yep. Satellites 10AW - sure.

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NBlob reckons...

Posted June 3, 2009
Wasn't that Pol Pot's idea?

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Brian mutters...

Posted June 3, 2009
NWB : Damn! You're right. Old Timers disease.

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El Coqui swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted June 3, 2009
I saw this on STRAFOR article by Peter Zeihan, that could explain why the US is likely to rebound and rebound big. Also supports Murph contention that we need to secure the waterways.

>The United States and the Free Market

The most important aspect of the United States is not simply its sheer size, but the size of its usable land. Russia and China may both be similar-sized in absolute terms, but the vast majority of Russian and Chinese land is useless for agriculture, habitation or development. In contrast, courtesy of the Midwest, the United States boasts the world’s largest contiguous mass of arable land — and that mass does not include the hardly inconsequential chunks of usable territory on both the West and East coasts.

Second is the American maritime transport system. The Mississippi River, linked as it is to the Red, Missouri, Ohio and Tennessee rivers, comprises the largest interconnected network of navigable rivers in the world. In the San Francisco Bay, Chesapeake Bay and Long Island Sound/New York Bay, the United States has three of the world’s largest and best natural harbors. The series of barrier islands a few miles off the shores of Texas and the East Coast form a water-based highway — an Intercoastal Waterway — that shields American coastal shipping from all but the worst that the elements can throw at ships and ports.

The real beauty is that the two overlap with near perfect symmetry. The Intercoastal Waterway and most of the bays link up with agricultural regions and their own local river systems (such as the series of rivers that descend from the Appalachians to the East Coast), while the Greater Mississippi river network is the circulatory system of the Midwest. Even without the addition of canals, it is possible for ships to reach nearly any part of the Midwest from nearly any part of the Gulf or East coasts. The result is not just a massive ability to grow a massive amount of crops — and not just the ability to easily and cheaply move the crops to local, regional and global markets — but also the ability to use that same transport network for any other economic purpose without having to worry about food supplies.

The implications of such a confluence are deep and sustained. Where most countries need to scrape together capital to build roads and rail to establish the very foundation of an economy, transport capability, geography granted the United States a near-perfect system at no cost. That frees up U.S. capital for other pursuits and almost condemns the United States to be capital-rich. Any additional infrastructure the United States constructs is icing on the cake. (The cake itself is free — and, incidentally, the United States had so much free capital that it was able to go on to build one of the best road-and-rail networks anyway, resulting in even greater economic advantages over competitors.)

Third, geography has also ensured that the United States has very little local competition. To the north, Canada is both much colder and much more mountainous than the United States. Canada’s only navigable maritime network — the Great Lakes-St. Lawrence Seaway —is shared with the United States, and most of its usable land is hard by the American border. Often this makes it more economically advantageous for Canadian provinces to integrate with their neighbor to the south than with their co-nationals to the east and west.

So the US had the geographic chop to make it worthwhile to invest on it and its defences.

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Brian mumbles...

Posted June 3, 2009
Jose. Some time back I wa studying the Eerie/ Great Lakes system. The damn thing is mind boggling.

People forget that one of the big kickers for Old China was the Grand (?) Canal. Took generations to build . . .but as an internal trade multiplier it was stupendous.

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Lobes asserts...

Posted June 3, 2009
Murph, dont tell me you didnt come away from Korea a RAIN fan??

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mckinneytexas would have you know...

Posted June 3, 2009
I respectfully disagree with the notion that the interior waterways need to be 'secured'. From whom? There are 5-6mm Americans left and presently zero somebody elses on the US mainland. The Mississippi is accessible by water only at one location, New Orleans. No one is going to portage a missile cruiser over the Allegheny Mountains and surprise NO from the rear. Besides, the world is in chaos right now. Bad guys coming in over the horizon will be very small in number, have a finite amount of supplies, ammo etc, and will be, at most, a localized threat. Just getting from, say, Venezuela, to Florida is no small feat.

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NBlob swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted June 6, 2009
Sir I disrespectfully disagree with your respectful disagreement.

Transport is one of the key pieces of infrastructure that a state provides her citizens. Crops to markets, people to services or services to people.

@ 0(zero)AW the roads are impassable. Pile ups of traffic - rusted into place + naturally occuring degradation eg flood damage, concrete spalling, land slip - what those highway maintenance guys do all day.

@5AW the situation will only be worse except in localised resttled areas with sufficient manpower to clear & maintain key roads.

North America's inland waterways which are in "as new" condition and require very little maintenance effort from the state to keep functional.

If a strategic decision was made to encourage & support repopulation was along river corridors, that may be one less thing on the Kippers To Do list.

Also bottlenecks provide opportunities for the Gov to "stick it's nose in." If transport is airbased scatered across 1000 unregulated airfields the government can't do what governments like to do.

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tygertim asserts...

Posted June 11, 2009
Jose. How does a fleet of cigarette hulled MGB's, say:

Displacement: 100 tons (max)

78.9 tons (standard)

Length: 175 ft

Beam: 8.06 m

Draught: 1.47 m

Propulsion: 3 - Daimler Benz twenty-cylinder diesel engines MB 501; 3,960 hp

Speed: 73.8 knots

Range: 800 nm at 30 knots

Complement: 24-30

Armament:

4 x MM38 Exocet anti-ship missiles forward,

1 x GDC Rolling Airframe Missile launcher, 21 cells, midship

2x 25mm Bushmaster Cannon, port, starboard midship next to pilothouse

Electronic warfare

and decoys:

* Decoy launcher HOT DOG

* Chaff launcher PUFF 2200 Wolke

Note, there is no armor. Hull construction is Aluminum or Marine firberglass.

sound for anti-Piratecy work?

Tyger

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tygertim reckons...

Posted June 11, 2009
Includes 2x MQ-1C Warrior UAV's

Armament

Hardpoints: 4

Missiles: 4 AGM-114 Hellfire

JDAM and Smart Bomb capable

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Respond to 'WW question from Jose.'

A day without migraine - and foregrounding the background.

Posted May 25, 2009 by John Birmingham
Well made it thru a day in front of the screen without suddenly having the world fall apart in a pixelated mess, fifteen minutes prior to getting a meat axe in my head. Or feeling like it. Which is to say, I had no migraine.

Yay!

There were a couple of moments were I thought I might have been about to go down, but that's not unusual the day after. And yesterday, of course was the day after, and I fucking did go down with a second of the fuckers. Fuck them.

Anyway, back on deck now and writing like mad to catch up. I had been planning a massive writing weekend. 5-6 chapters. In the end, between the headaches, i got about 400 words done.

Just have to suck it up and punch harder this week.

Spent this evening editing a couple of my 'cowboy' arc chapters, which feature Miguel from WW. I don't even recall whether Mig' rated a POV chapter of his own in book one, or whether he was simply an ethical foil for Juilanne. But he's really come into his own in this book. I think his story arc might be my fave of all. It certainly generates some of the best lines and iconic imagery.

Miguel prodded his horse forward again and rode up next to the Agent.

He spoke in a low voice, but with great power.

“If I were you, I would be looking to make this as painless a leave-taking as possible, senor. If I were you, I would shut my mouth now, unless I wanted to die with my neck stretched and my insides hanging out over my belt, swinging in the air for the crows to pick.”

He casually drew the knife with which he had killed two men the previous evening, stropped it slowly on his jeans and gave the Road Agent his stone face.

...

"Out here" said Miguel, "Justice is a bullet."

...

Miguel hoisted his own rifle, his much loved Winchester and held it in front of the boy. “This gun has been leveled at five men, Orrin. They are all dead now. Do you understand? I have never pointed this gun at a man and failed to take his life.”

Anyway, enough farnarkling around. Back to it.

41 Responses to ‘A day without migraine - and foregrounding the background.’

Brian asserts...

Posted May 25, 2009
Been waiting for the ear shattering 'KABBOOM" as your head imploded. Jeez . . . .what do you take for pain relief?

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savo asserts...

Posted May 25, 2009
Ol'M's last forever. I never get pain associated with them only the visual distortion. Firsttime was f**ken scary thought I'd had a stroke or sumpthin.

Don't think Miguel had a big part in WW but ...

NExt road trip after dead line?

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NBlob swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 25, 2009
*Stamping feet*

more farnarkling

more farnarkling

more farnarkling

more farnarkling

c'mon folks, don't leave me hanging like this

more farnarkling

more farnarkling

*softer*

more farnarkling

*trailing off*

more far har aah crap.

Good stuff JB, looking forward to some mesa & circling buzzards action.

Bummer about the migraines. Have you tried tincture of morphine or luadanum?

Post wave skillsets: Cowpoke?!

I guess real estate agents are redundant.

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Orin puts forth...

Posted May 25, 2009
What is a farnarkle?

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Lobes has opinions thus...

Posted May 25, 2009
the fajoint on your fafinger. moral of the story dont fa with miguel

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HAVOCK asserts...

Posted May 25, 2009
so ya been operaing on LOW RES!, just might need a JasJAM upgrade and all will be good JB....

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Orin ducks in to say...

Posted May 25, 2009
And why does Orin have too many R's?

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Chaz would have you know...

Posted May 25, 2009
It could be worse, look whats happening to havock..ooops said too much!!!

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Matthew K ducks in to say...

Posted May 26, 2009
Were I one of Miguel's companions and he spoke to me like that I'd put a magazine into his back the first time he turned away from me.

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sparty mutters...

Posted May 26, 2009
lovin this lonesome dove stuff!

Orin - you've just joined O'Neill (with 2 L's) company!

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Paul Nicholas Boylan mumbles...

Posted May 26, 2009
I love visiting this blog because it serves as a frequent reminder that my life has taken the correct path. I am a fairly good attorney, but I could never be a writer. I don't have the artistic integrity to write professionally. for example, if I were writing WW II, I would try to fill it with lines like this:

“Out here” said Miguel, “Justice is often mispronounced.”

I will keep my day job and leave the legitimate writing to professionals. John, I can't wait to read the sequel.

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John Birmingham is gonna tell you...

Posted May 26, 2009
'And why does Orin have too many R's? '

Different Orrin.

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lostatlunch ducks in to say...

Posted May 26, 2009
Orrin... are you hard enough to take Miguel? I dont think today is a good day to die.

I could do with a bit more farnarking...

Can a Brissie local express a Muffin Basket to Mr. B... we need more farnarking... or a meat tray from Wagga.

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Orin has opinions thus...

Posted May 26, 2009
Sounds like "Orrin" is a kid, so technically Miguel can point the gun at him and not take his life because his original statement is about "men".

If Orrin ever turns up here, it will be a geek-off at a pico parsec. No one is taking my title of Alpha-nerd!

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Lobes is gonna tell you...

Posted May 26, 2009
Or to give his full title, Ensign Orrin Crusher.

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Therbs swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 26, 2009
Farnarkling is what it says it is - farnarkling. It was once a fictional sport invented by John Clarke ("And that's a magnificent arkle!")to satirise the theologising of sport, but really, its just farnarkling.

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Sweet Jane Says has opinions thus...

Posted May 26, 2009
Blah... No-one talks like that! Jesus... Google: Cowboy Poetry. Watch rodeos on ESPN. Randomly phone what's left of the giant spreads.

My grandfather had a big spread in Oklahoma, and he never talked like that. His hired help didn't talk like that. I've lived on his land until he died and split the land among his eight children, and none of them talked like that.

It's laughable.

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Sweet Jane Says mumbles...

Posted May 26, 2009
Check the writings of two Oklahomans for a taste of the West that was and the cowboys that barely scraped a living: Tony Hillerman and Louis L'Amour.

J.

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Sweet Jane Says swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 26, 2009
Seriously, Birmingham, it's horrible and insulting.

J.

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John Birmingham would have you know...

Posted May 26, 2009
And yet it sells by the truckload. Go figure.

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NBlob mumbles...

Posted May 26, 2009
Sweet familiar stereotypes.

Where would we be without you?

You seem to have missed a point J, one of the standard (or readable) lit tropes is to take a mutually recognisable character & place him /her in an extraordinary situation. Without this Birmo'd spend pages & pages on character development & little or no A narrative, B explodey goodness or C international intrigue - which are kind of the point of his books.

Which you'd know.

If you read one.

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Trowzers puts forth...

Posted May 26, 2009
Of course, US television would *never* use a horribly stereotyped Australian character with a completely inaccurate accent!

Maybe you should consider it revenge :)

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Therbs would have you know...

Posted May 26, 2009
Since when does dialogue in fiction have to reflect real conversation? My guess is hardly ever. Sure, that would be fascinating stuff full of "Seriously, you know, I was like, wow dude, and he was like, you know, oh my god! And then he was you know going oh my god, like, you know, as if!"

I think I prefer "...swinging in the air for crows to pick." to "He was like, awesomely like whoa! You know?"

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DrYobbo has opinions thus...

Posted May 26, 2009
Farnarkling FTW. Aside from Roy and HG noone's captured the self-referential idol-worshiping idiocy of Strayan sports and sports media like John Clarke in that (and in the Games of course.)

(bowing and scraping) A thousand apologies sahib for the poor showing at Blunty today - manflu, moving hourse, bone in my trotter, and pretty much over the farnarkling story since it's all the NZ meeja talk about. Yeah I know, this is Sparta, but as far as my ancient history recollection goes being Spartan mainly involved leaving infants on hillsides to die of exposure and sodomising fellow barracks-buddies between sorties. Jeez where do I sign?

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Lobes puts forth...

Posted May 26, 2009
JB's namesake Billy at the Twelth Man made a pretty good attempt. Alas the humour has slowly diluted in the follow up series'.

Still, it changed the way I view Max Walker forever.

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Matthew K asserts...

Posted May 26, 2009
JB: "And yet it sells by the truckload. Go figure."

I know, it does all come down to the bottom line on the balance sheet in the end. But I have to admit it doesn't quite convince me either.

Not wanting to gang up on you or bring you down JB it's just I figured you'd rather hear it now than later.

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Robert swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 27, 2009
Levi's Hand-Stropped Jeans?

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John Birmingham swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 27, 2009
Matt, I wouldn't bother replying to SweatJane but I will for you. There are three things to remember about the extracts.

First, they're extracts, you're not seeing them in context, where Miguel's dialogue is just one set of lines amongst many. Dialogue is a great way of establishing and differentiating character, and thus fictional characters tend to have emphasized speech patterns in a way that real people don't. Read a taped interview or surveillance transcript if you can, then compare it to the dialogue in a movie, even a movie with 'naturalistic' dialogue such as Pulp Fiction. They're very different. Normal speech is unreadable.

This leads me to the 2nd point I'd make about Miguel. He's learned English as a second language, ie formally. He speech patterns will be much more formal because of that.

Finally, it's a genre novel. With a cowboy narrative. There is an element of homage paying but also gentle piss taking involved. Hence the line that opens that particular chapter, "You cain't do this mister. We ain't done nuthin' to deserve a hangin!"

Would anyone ever say that? In real life? Maybe. If they were an ill bred moron. In a Larry McMurtry novel? They just might. But in the TV adaptation of a Larry McMurtry novel, they almost certainly would. And that's the market in which I'm working.

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Matthew K asserts...

Posted May 27, 2009
All true, especially the second language thing. I'm quite used to hearing English spoken as a second language and it is true that people speak differently to native speakers. I can often spot the best of them by the almost formal care with which they speak, but people often strike slightly the wrong tone. (I know I have in Spanish).

Then there's the difference between real life and fictional speech.

And I was indeed seeing it out of it's context.

I'll stop talking, finish this fine beer and go skim WW so I actually know what I'm talking about.

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Jorge puts forth...

Posted May 27, 2009
Somehow McMurtry makes it sound so natural and the characters never seem like caricatures. Your Miguel sounds like an R-rated Speedy Gonzales. Aim a little more for Cormac McCarthy. Part nuts and part mystical.

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Sweet Jane Says reckons...

Posted May 27, 2009
I taught ENGLISH as a SECOND LANGUAGE to HISPANIC kids in NEW MEXICO. I travel exstensively in MEXICO, and I've never encountered someone that talks like Slim Pickens. Reference the works of Robert Rodríguez. Read a bit of Tony Hillerman and Louis L’Amour. Read a few excerpts from our Hispanic writers. But, you won't; you're content with tripe when you could be doing quality.

J.

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Sweet Jane Says puts forth...

Posted May 27, 2009
You're trying to make the character sound like the captain of the Firefly, aren't you? Jesus...

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lostatlunch mutters...

Posted May 27, 2009
After Meryl Streep in Evil Angels there is NOTHING that an Australian can do to any American speech pattern that can compare to that infamy.

There is a troll under this bridge.

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Paul Nicholas Boylan reckons...

Posted May 27, 2009
Jane - first of all, Miguel doesn't sound a thing like the captain of the Firefly. But even if he did, what would be wrong with that? The character of Malcolm Reynolds is still the coolest of the cool and some of Joss Whedon best work. I try to talk like him all of the time. True, it is silly when I do it, but that isn't the point. The point is that trying to make a character sound like Malcolm wouldn't be a bad thing at all.

My wife just walked into my office and said "bacon flavored vodka..." and walked out.

I hate when she does that kind of thing.

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damian is gonna tell you...

Posted May 27, 2009
I'm a big fan of Elmore Leonard, and probably wouldn't stumble into modern western genre writing without rereading his recent stuff in depth. Don't really know the genre well enough to do a survey, but I'm sure it wouldn't be onerous.

But then I don't have a deadline :)

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damian puts forth...

Posted May 27, 2009
Darkman, I always get this idea that there ought to be a brand of cheap and nasty port, called "Billy-goat Port", that comes in 2-litre flagons complete with oversized brown paper bag. It strikes me as the perfect offering for the sort of trolls one does in fact find under bridges in our age.

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Sweet Jane Says asserts...

Posted May 27, 2009
Yes, yes... Someone invented bacon flavoured vodka. It's gruesome.

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Matthew K puts forth...

Posted May 27, 2009
Damian: "Elmore Leonard". Hell yes, good point. That is damn cool dialogue. The best ever maybe, I feel inspired to go out and buy one now.

J: Talking of striking the wrong tone, is English your mother tongue? ;-)

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Dick Shanarry reckons...

Posted May 28, 2009
"exstensively"

Shame they had to learn English from someone who spells like a 10 year old.

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Sweet Jane Says would have you know...

Posted May 28, 2009
I do a damned fine job considering the scalping, cracked cranium, and amnesia that came with the broken neck. In addition, my kidneys were hemmoraging blood through my bladder last night. And, no - English wasn't my first language. My first language was a Southern dialect that I didn't abandon until 5th. grade.

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Sweet Jane Says would have you know...

Posted May 28, 2009
Hell, Birmingham, you were in California, Texas, and New York surrounded by Hispanics, Latinos, Mexicans, Cubanos, and Puerto Ricans, but you stuck with your peanut gallery and botched your research. Did you ever venture into the real America without your geeky goons? Whites are the minority; it wouldn't have been difficult to find Spanglish speakers. They're the ones that keep this country running.

J.

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Respond to 'A day without migraine - and foregrounding the background.'

A North American Federation.

Posted May 18, 2009 by John Birmingham
One my twittervolk who's reading WW asked about why nobody was talking to the remnant Canadians.

The Canucks do spook around a bit off stage, but he's right, you don't see them otherwise.

Same in book two, although we do hear of them in second discussion of the Treaty of Vancouver (one outcome of which is to bring Echelon into the open and formalise its relationship with with the rest of the Sec/Intel community).

But, what chance the surving Candians would consider federating, even loosely with the surviving US states?

65 Responses to ‘A North American Federation.’

NBlob mumbles...

Posted May 18, 2009
Can who?

Can a da? Hmm Googling...

Oh them. The EnZed of the North Pacific - only good for skiing & occasional "human interest" stories. Like "Man freezes bollocks to car door."

As for confederation - I strongly doubt they'd ever formally join the union, but a short term alliance'd be possible- if an external threat presents.

We discussed in a previous thread the difficulty for re-colonists or baddies crossing Mexico. I reckon Canada will probably be the avenue of choice eh.

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Brian puts forth...

Posted May 18, 2009
Good question. What's the population like on the Canadian West Coast? Seems a silly question but do they have more in common with the CONUS West Coast in their values and they way they think than say with the Atlantic Coastal provinces?

If that is a yes. Then they'd be thinking how they're wedged between Seattle and ALaska and the problems they'd have in attracting population. They'd be thinking about wanting to be under the US security umbrella.

There's a probability that they'd may want some special status - perhaps a 'protectorate'. Could be a useful plot device. Hmm . . .

The borders unpoliceable - people are going to be going back and fourth taking what they want. If an arguement could be put that a North American security Pact is in everyones interest?

The thinking is a bit fractured. But its there to be knocked down or into shape. Have at it.

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Paul Nicholas Boylan mumbles...

Posted May 18, 2009
They would do it in a heartbeat. What Canadian hasn't really, deep down, wanted to be a citizen of the United States, eh?

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Paul Nicholas Boylan asserts...

Posted May 18, 2009
Except for those assholes in Banff, of course.

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lostatlunch has opinions thus...

Posted May 18, 2009
PNB.. only in the sense that many Americans wish they were a lot more Candian.

My experience with Seattle residents would be more comfortable in Vancover than Houston.

Apart from the massive american military, there seems to be little left of the American people.

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yankeedog mutters...

Posted May 18, 2009
They might have to simply to survive. The part of Canada (save Edmonton and Vancouver) is pretty lightly populated, but it has a lot of resources. I'd have to think they'd be on some nation's 'Grab' list. With the natural resources available, it's conceivable that they could have the slightly stronger economy in a North American Federation.

I'm not sure what is left of the Canadian military other than the naval bases around Vancouver. Most of the Canadian Forces barracks and airbases are well inside the Dead Zone.

If cultural differences could be put aside, it could be a viable national entity.

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Paul Nicholas Boylan swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 18, 2009
All kidding aside (which, for me, is an important concession and a sign that I might be drunk) the Arctic Ocean is rapidly becoming a viable commercial shipping route and a resource-rich prize that is worth fighting for. The surviving Canadian's might consider federating with what is left of the United States in exchange for the use of US naval power (spread all over the world and so surprisingly robust after the Wave) to secure Canadian interests in dominating the Arctic.

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Chaz asserts...

Posted May 18, 2009
Much as I hatre to admit it but PB is right about about the artctic rights issue. The main fly in the ointment would of course be Les Quebecois. HMMM now thats a thought would they really want to get closer to france now thats it's reliving 'the terror'?

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Big Bad Al is gonna tell you...

Posted May 18, 2009
At least they wouldn't have to worry about the French Canadians.

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damian has opinions thus...

Posted May 18, 2009
Isn't Vancouver basically a suburb of Seattle anyway?

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HAVOCK is gonna tell you...

Posted May 18, 2009
small, Q, just what Canadian units were present for the jump off, of D storm, I suspect a lot, plus gear, not completely screwed Mil wise i suspect. Hmm french connection.....I see an issue,

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damian would have you know...

Posted May 18, 2009
Oh and to PNB: yes and yes. With rising sea levels and the melting of the arctic, the world's busiest shipping routes will be north of Canada and Russia. This is already happening in our timeline, and shipping companies are making plans around it. Add in the greenhouse outcomes of the incineration of mainland US industry, and I can only see this accelerating. Though the other issues would indicate a decline in total shipping, of course.

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Patricia is gonna tell you...

Posted May 18, 2009
Ok. Obviously nobodyhere has asked a Canadian. Having lived among them Canucks for a year, and having a mother who grew up in Oh Canadar, I would say: ZILCH. Canada despises the US for being belligerent, arrogant, racist, homophobic and generally ignorant of and completely oblivious to the interests of other countries. Unless your novel includes a president of Obama's ilk, I reckon there is NO chance in HELL JB. None.

Especially the Pacific Northwest.

Although they resent Quebeckers for receiving most of the government subsidies while having only 25% of the population and for being linguistic nazis, they are Canucks through and through.

Their value systems include true equality for everyone. A real fair go. Their army only ever goes into peacekeeping mode. They oppose most militarism. They would probably sick every fucking grizzly on their side of the border on any troops. Although the population of BC is roughly 2 or 3 million max, they are used to roughing it. One of the biggest past times in Vancouver is to run up Grouse Mountain in summer. And we're not talking a measly small mountain. Grouse has enough elevation for snow in winter. They will go camping in the pouring rain. They will skate in rain and ice. Although they have nothing against their cousins in the northernmost states, they hate US militarism. Forget about it.

No chance at all. Just read anything written by any of their previous prime ministers from Trudeau onwards.

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Patricia mumbles...

Posted May 18, 2009
Btw - guys - i must thank you for the completely oblivious comments to the feelings of Canucks. You just roused me out of a depressed stupor. Love yas.

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lostatlunch swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 18, 2009
The UK.. and the cheese eating surrender monkeys may be keen to "help resettle" the land of Eh. and even use their military to make it happen... Kipper may be a little busy to make any argument about anything that is not US territory.

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lostatlunch ducks in to say...

Posted May 18, 2009
The UK.. and the cheese eating surrender monkeys may be keen to "help resettle" the land of Eh. and even use their military to make it happen... Kipper may be a little busy to make any argument about anything that is not US territory. I would be mindful, lots of people are now planning a little reshaping of the geo-political globe.

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Paul Nicholas Boylan mumbles...

Posted May 18, 2009
Patricia - why is it always about you?

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sibeen swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 18, 2009
The main fly in the ointment would of course be Les Quebecois.

The fly in the ointment has gone *poof* with the USA and large parts of Cananda.

I've stated before in other threads that I believe there would be an anschluss between the USA and what's left of the Canadian population.

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TJX has opinions thus...

Posted May 18, 2009
QUOTE - "Their army only ever goes into peacekeeping mode."

I suggest you do some research on this because Canada is one of the few NATO members doing any actual FIGHTING in Afghanistan. And Trudeau is ancient f*kin history my friend. If you had'nt noticed, Canada has a CONSERVATIVE government that's actually spending money on the military. We just recently bought new Leopard 2A6 tanks which is just as good, if not better than American Abrams tanks.

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Naut ducks in to say...

Posted May 18, 2009
I dunno Patricia, I have met plenty of Canadians (my best mate is Canadian) that aren't that anti-American and plenty that fit your description. They are very proud of their links with the US and refer to themselves as North Americans more often than Canadians.

That said, I am not sure even the pro-US one would go for Federation except in the loosest terms.

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Brian reckons...

Posted May 18, 2009
Patricia - I did touch on that question. Still . .is the West Coast on Canuck land going to have more in common culturally with West Coast US than with the rest of Canuckland? I'm thinking of the barnies Californians have with East Coasters here.

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HAVOCK asserts...

Posted May 18, 2009
BIG Q. IS Echelon...Left or Right!..sorry..lol. shoulda called them Arrow head.

Actually, another Q. How long and what OTHER NAMES, did you come up with before you settled on echelon!

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Moko swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 18, 2009
I dunno. I think it'll be a bit like the Kiwi's signing up with the Ockers. Can't see it happening for anything other than survival. Even then it'll only to consolidate forces. I think they'd keep their idea of a government though. That's something everyone is passionate about in their own little corner of the world.

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NBlob reckons...

Posted May 18, 2009
Echelon has been around for a while. I remember one of my more ahh gullible friends telling me about it 4 or 5 years ago.

"Duude, It's like this threat scanning software running on multiple massive supercomputers. It can read every email & listen to every phone call in real-time. It's listening for key words and it'll tag the call as a threat if it gets a ping. Then it'll, like, check who the call is from & to, collate all your Tax records, bank records & contracts, profile you and spit out a risk assessment. The only way we can beat it is if we all say "Bomb Whitehouse" once in every phone conversation & every Email. The system would get so many positives that it'll fall over."

Same dude would take the battery out of his mobile everytime we discussed something less than %100 legal. He was sure "They" could remotely turn the phone on without any change to the LCD display & listen in to any conversations made within pickup range of the phone's mic. This was apparantly why "They" made us go over to the digital network.

Hmm, I haven't seen him in a while.

Hello, someones @ the door.

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HAVOCK would have you know...

Posted May 18, 2009
yeah yeah..NBOB.....my MAN...Bourne..echelon, hmmm. But thats software. I reckon JB would have mulled that one over, excuse the phrase, but I'll bet he nearly went with another code name for the mob

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Chaz mumbles...

Posted May 18, 2009
H. echelon is more than software it's a network.

Sibeen, sorry I thought quebec miissed the wave but then it's been a while since I looked at the map. mea culpa

Nbob, mate you made me laugh!

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Chaz swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 18, 2009
Oh and echelon is run by lovely people, lovely lovely people.

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Guy reckons...

Posted May 18, 2009
I have no doubt that the remaining Canadians would want to rebuild their country just as much as the remaining citizens of the USA would wish to rebuild theirs. Nonetheless, I would also expect extremely close co-operation between the two rump states post-Wave. USA and Canada are already close NATO allies and there are no really serious points of disagreement. Canadians and Americans are both proud of their countries and values and while they have a huge amount in common, there is enough of a difference to ensure that the states would remain seperate. Of course the removal of the French Canadians would make matters much easier...

Also remember that the UK is a close ally of both countries, although we are inevitably closer in cultural terms to the Canadians. Brits and Cannucks both have the Queen as the Head of State, we both have a Parliamentary system of government with a Prime Minister as Head of Government rather than a President etc. The UK would be just as supportive of the Canadians as we would be of the US. I believe a strong US-Canadian-British alliance would emerge, dedicated to protecting the remnants of the US and Canada and starting to rebuild North America. It would be highly likely that there would be considerable involvement from Australia and New Zealand as well - all the Echelon states in other words.

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Lobes puts forth...

Posted May 18, 2009
Chaz, IIRC the wave took out everything East of about Central BC.

I had the same problem before and someone (Tarl?) kindly put up a map link (that i now lost). I would suggest that JB puts a link to an image of the map here or at the miniburger so we're not continually playing the guessing game.

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savo would have you know...

Posted May 18, 2009
The Canadian US amalgamation has been talked about before. I'm sure that the consensus was that there simply weren't enough Canucks to make a difference, sure Vancouver and a couple of the snow fields (which would be populated mainly by Aussies) but pretty much a very empty country. Don't know if they were part of the coalition of the willing so I doubt much in the way of either industry or military. Mind you what ever Canadians survived, they will be celebrating the loss of the French part.

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savo would have you know...

Posted May 18, 2009
plenty of room at the mini can whoever it was send the map to birmoverse at yahoo dot com dot au.

ta

savo

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Matthew K ducks in to say...

Posted May 18, 2009
So what with Alaska, Hawaii, plus what Canadian forces were in the Gulf and what percentage of North America are the (west coast) Canadians now?

Because their numbers will determine how much clout they have in the inevitable alliance/confederation. As has been pointed out they would need to stick close with the remnants of the US for survival.

Oh, and there used to be Canadian forces based in the Black Forest in Germany, on the French-German border. Dunno if they were still there at the time of the wave.

Those Canadians I have met were all "North Americans" and got ticked off if people forgot Canada is part of that continent.

I've found Canadians to be more European in their attitudes, but unlike Europeans they are intimately familiar with the US and so don't spew out a lot of the crap that some Euros talk on the subject.

I remember one baiting a stupid German dreadlock, "Yes I am American. No, I never said I was from the USA".

I'd like to think that we in the UK would defend Canadian (and US) territory but what with the scale of the place and the size of our forces... Maybe if we joined up the rest of the EU, Scandinavia and ANZAC.

We'd need to do something just to make sure it wasn't in the wrong hands.

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HAVOCK swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 18, 2009
Ahhh, so Can anybody give me anything more than WILD speculation about echelon, the fact its perceived, believed and might or might not be real, its software, possibly a series of linked gather stations, A FULLY OPERATIONAL, manned covert surv network with operatives.

OK, so JB took it a step further cool I can live with that.

But I noted that Wiki and the likes mentions DSD, but not the glass house at Vic barracks, the basement so to speak, the big arse puters down there and WHAT THE are used for. the fact that the people who happen to work in their, are so bloody tight lipped about what they do its not funny, I happen to know a couple BTW. Spook central for signit and christ knows what else.hmmmm. Wilde speculation..But its Fiction so I guess I can live with the whole ensemble.

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Matthew K swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 18, 2009
I know is that lining my hat with bacofoil works...

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Patricia has opinions thus...

Posted May 18, 2009
Paul...didn't you know? I'm the centre of your universe. ;p

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fishbowlnz has opinions thus...

Posted May 18, 2009
I can't imagine anything like federation, sure close cooperation, shared resources, border security, , shared police patrols maybe but formal sharing / ceding of sovereignty nope… I think the Canadians are like the Kiwis in this respect – help the neighbours but messing with flags and who gets to run the show, no way, not for decades.

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NBlob is gonna tell you...

Posted May 18, 2009
Havoc, I think you got it in one. SigInt.

Who's who in the zoo, who does who know, what skills, info or material might be shared. Then big fat gobs of risk assessments.

I have often wondered about where the Public Service meets National Security.

Four guys sitting around with flip chart & pens discussing prevention of & countermeasures for an aerosolised chemical weapon attack at Flemington on Melbourne Cup day. They then stop at 10:30 for a cuppa, @ 14:15 Larry knocks off to pick up his kids and there's 20 minutes of horsesh!t paperwork to get a new pen.

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Paul Nicholas Boylan reckons...

Posted May 18, 2009
Patricia - Even though that is undoubtedly true, I still resent the fact that it is always about you.

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El Coqui swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 18, 2009
Echelon is part of the deep space surveillance network of the USAF Planetary Defense Command (The Real Stargate), of course.

:)

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Paul Nicholas Boylan swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 19, 2009
Once again, I am compelled to abandon frivolity and opine sincerely (a sure sign that I am in the midst of a difficult personal period of my life): I can't see anything but a political/military/economic alliance of what is left of the US and Canada. The current alliance is hegemonic in nature, but, post-wave, there are just too many mutual political, military and economic benefits supporting an alliance to seriously argue that any pre-wave anti-US sentiment or illusions of Canadian independence would get in the way of a pragmatic decision to work together very closely.

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Guy would have you know...

Posted May 19, 2009
Never underestimate the emotional attachment to a flag and other symbols of statehood Paul. Doubtless the remnants of the US and Canada would cooperate more closely than ever before but they would never abandon their identities - which, after all, is just about all they have left. It may not be entirely pragmatic, but it is very human.

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Paul Nicholas Boylan is gonna tell you...

Posted May 19, 2009
Guy - Hunger knows no morality, or sentiment. When the going gets tough, the tough take over and suppress idealists.

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Paul Nicholas Boylan has opinions thus...

Posted May 19, 2009
Not to say the Canadians would not be bargaining hard. Canada has been under the US boot for quite some time (anyone who argues otherwise is a moron). The post-Wave arrangement will be more of a partnership of mutual convenience and profit. I don't expect either the US or Canada or any other state joining such an alliance to give up their prior national and cultural identity any more than Poland stopped being Polish when it joined Nato.

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Allan mumbles...

Posted May 19, 2009
I tend to agree with the partnership idea, rather than a Union. In times of crisis, national identity is often one of those things people turn to, a rock solid foundation on which to stand when everything else is crumbling around them.

I for one cannot imagine any condition under which I would support the absorption of Australia into any entity in which we did not retain all that we are as a nation, especially sovereignty.

And all joking aside, I think we have to assume most Canadians are as patriotic as most Australians.

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mckinneytexas has opinions thus...

Posted May 19, 2009
Paul is generally right, Canada could and probably would form some kind of pact with the US. It might be an alliance, statehood, or whatever, and it could be permanent or or for a stated period of time, or it could be a modified NATO with the remaining US forces having basing rights in Canada. However, I don't agree that Canada has been under our boot, anymore than Mexico has, so I guess I am a moron who agrees with Paul's main point.

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Paul Nicholas Boylan has opinions thus...

Posted May 19, 2009
Okay, so I overstated the "moron" aspect of any divergent opinion re: US Hegemony in North America. But I have to admit, I am likely to label anyone else (other than you, Chaz, Yobbo and Murph) in a similar fashion.

And, perhaps (although this is not a concession) the phrase "under the boot" was a bit extreme. Nevertheless, the US is a classic hegemon in North America with Canada and Mexico subject to US political, economic and military dominance.

The greater point is that such hegemony would no longer be in affect post-Wave, which means any post-Wave cooperation between Canada and the US - although inevitable - would likely be based on bilateral expectations unlike what currently exists with Canada no longer subject to US dominance to current degree.

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Boscolamb swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 19, 2009
Canadian independence?!

I'm sure we could alter the Pledge of Allegiance with the following:

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the Consolidated States of America, and to the rump Republic for which it now stands, where Strength is irrelevant, and resistance is futile. We wish to improve ourselves. We will add your resources - biological, and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service ours, with one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for most."

Canucks, welcome to second class citizenship!

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TJX puts forth...

Posted May 19, 2009
QUOTE - "I’ve found Canadians to be more European in their attitudes"

*CRINGES at that thought.

I'm Canadian, and I don't consider myself "Euro" in ANY way, shape, or form!

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Paul Nicholas Boylan reckons...

Posted May 19, 2009
Boscolamb - "Rump Republic" eh? Why don't you just accuse all us US Citizens of being gay and be done with it? "Rump Republic" indeed. I may thank God daily that my son isn't gay (for perfectly acceptable reasons) but I am proud of my support for gay rights - including gay marriage and, its necessary and inevitable counterpart: gay divorce (I practice family law here in California and I am looking forward to the extra business). All of you so-called "Canadians" are so far right of center it isn't even funny.

Don't even get me started on those lousy Australians...

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Matthew K has opinions thus...

Posted May 19, 2009
TJX, re:“I’ve found Canadians to be MORE European in their attitudes”

That's as compared to US citizens. I did not say Canadians were Europeans only that they are socially closer to some Euros than their friends south of the border.

OK? We cool?

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mckinneytexas has opinions thus...

Posted May 19, 2009
The remaining population of Canada is in the 2-3mm range at most--not an insubstantial number in the post wave world. Since I've long thought that a US/Aus/NZ/UK confederation of some sort was in the offing, I always assumed Canada would be part of the mix.

A slightly related issue would be whether the US would lay claim to the remainder of Mexico.

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HAVOCK reckons...

Posted May 19, 2009
Mckin, Hell yes I say. Kick the bastards when they are down, expand, grab, take and keep

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Dan reckons...

Posted May 19, 2009
I live in Toronto, so probably I would be gone in this book's reality with the rest of the US.

About the subject at hand - I am not sure how well it will work a federated Canada with the US rump, bu the chances may be better than what was previously argued in this thread. There are two factors which were not taken into account by anyone:

1. Immigrants - Canada imports about 200k people per year and 80% go to the five major urban centers in Canada - Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal, Calgary and Ottawa. Vancouver has a fairly big immigrant community. These immigrants are quite friendly to the US and they may become a driving force behind a federalization movement.

2. Canada does not have a big army to start with, and most of it is in Ontario and Quebec - so in the book is gone. What no one said, but it is fairly well known in Canada is that we can spend lots of money on healthcare and other nice things we have because we spend a ridiculously low amount on defense. Exactly because we are under the US security umbrella. A US mostly gone may really scare a lot of people into action, so, again, the idea of a union may become more atractive than it is now.

And third idea, which was mentioned before but I think reinforces the arguments for a US-Canada union:

3. There is a difference between western Canada and the rest of the country. The westerners are much more friendlier to the US than rest, especially the Quebeckers which now have much more weight within the Canadian federation than they should.

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mckinneytexas has opinions thus...

Posted May 19, 2009
Havock, you don't think we wouldn't be doing folks a favor by giving them good government and imparting the benefits of crop rotation and close-order drill?

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Murphy has opinions thus...

Posted May 19, 2009
Worth pointing out that the US and Canada have strong defense and trade ties already. I suspect those ties would become stronger in the chaotic post wave security environment.

Writing from his very brief vacation location,

Murph

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Matthew K ducks in to say...

Posted May 19, 2009
mckinneytexas: "The remaining population of Canada is in the 2-3mm range"

What, they've been shrunk by the Wave? that's microscopic dude!

"Since I’ve long thought that a US/Aus/NZ/UK confederation of some sort was in the offing,"

Cool, but Britain would tend to bring along the rest of the EU. There's already NATO.

Dan: "Canada does not have a big army to start with, and most of it is in Ontario and Quebec - so in the book is gone."

But what about forces in the Gulf (did you guys take part?) or Afghanistan?

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NukemHill asserts...

Posted May 20, 2009
Lovin' how the U.S. of A. haters are trying to show how sophisticated they are. Hey, how about stickin' to the subject matter and giving some legitimate reasons for and against various possible forms of Federation? Venting your spleen doesn't count.

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Nightwyrm reckons...

Posted May 20, 2009
When I originally posted the question to John, my thoughts were more about general survival rather than if both countries could put any emnities aside.

In the book, there are major food issues amongst the American remnants. What's left of Canada (namely the remaining part of Alberta) is rich in farmland as well as crude oil. On top of that, British Columbia has good hunting and fishing. I think that, in order to keep Washington and Hawaii fed, the Americans would have to make some deal with Canada. On top of this, I'd think that scientists from both sides of the border would be collaborating to understand the Wave.

The US and Canadian political philosophies would probably be to disparate for a Federation to be created (plus the issue of national identity/pride). However, it would make sense for the survivors to form a strategic alliance for basic survival and trading.

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Nightwyrm ducks in to say...

Posted May 20, 2009
@mckinneytexas

"Since I’ve long thought that a US/Aus/NZ/UK confederation of some sort was in the offing, I always assumed Canada would be part of the mix."

Why would you think Aus and NZ would confederate with US and UK? We don't even want to confederate together.

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mckinneytexas mutters...

Posted May 21, 2009
Nightwyrm--different set of dynamics. the point of WW is that, if the US is around as a counterweight to offset other hegemonic interests, not to mention the essential conduit for most food, technology and commerce, things go to shit pretty quickly. Aus/NZ won't confederate today, just like Canada and the US won't confederate. Change the circumstances and you change the thought process.

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Nick Blue ducks in to say...

Posted May 21, 2009
Definitely federation. But it does depend upon how much Britain is involved in the recolonisation efforts.

I think that you need to look at the facts on the ground. Once the wave lifts, in the US/Canada you have 5 functioning States/Provinces/Territories with substantial populations (Alaska, Washington, Hawaii, British Columbia and Puerto Rico), the northern territories (Yukon, Nunavut) plus US territories in the pacific. You have sparsley populated rumps of States/Provinces (bits of Alberta, maybe Quebec, maybe Ontario, maybe Oregon). You then have a massive central zone that is depopulated but suitable for colonisation.

There are two drivers - the current situation and the future colonisation. As far as British Columbia is concerned, the people are culturally almost the same as those in Washington State (which is quite a blue State). They are in the way between Alaska and Washington and accessible by sea from Hawaii. There is no pressing political reason for them not to federate - life would be pretty much the same, plus they get access to the US defense and resources. Economically they would be (after a year of the wave) almost completely merged into a single Cascadian economy.

Looking at the colonisation effort. BC cannot effectively colonise the Atlantic States. They are too small and don't have the power on their own to project force over that distance. Sure, they can fix Alberta up pretty quickly, probably Saskatchewan too within a decade. But the Atlantic is too big a step. In the US though, they don't need to expand as much force on their own. The US military can do that and give people enough time to properly colonise the centre and East of the continent.

Likewise if you are coming in from overseas to colonise North America, are you really going to care whether you end up in the US or Canada? In fact you might prefer to be in the US.

The only point I can think of, is if Britain leads or has a big role in the colonisation effort - they might want to retain a Canada as a dependent nation. They might think that a combined US of North America will get too big and powerful too quickly. On the other hand, maybe it is an opportunity to rebuild the US more as Britain wants. In which case a United States of North America still makes sense. Britain certainly has surplus population to spare for colonisation.

Personally, I'd see a continuing US admitting BC and Puerto Rico as States (although the position of Puerto Rico been's discused elsewhere), Yukon and Nunavut as territories and claiming all territory in North America north of Mexico and contracting with Britain, Australia and NZ to assist in the recolonisation effort - with Britain being given some form of special licence to occupy the Atlantic Coast for the purpose of cleaning up the territory and colonisation. That ensures that no other European power gets any big ideas. The US then establishes new territories covering each existing State or Province. For most of them they would exist on paper only at first, but California, Oregon and Alberta certainly could be brought up-to Statehood within 5 years just using the existing US population and some new settlers from Australia/NZ.

Mexico is more difficult and would depend upon how much of a functioning government remained in the rump area. Would the new US really allow anyone to colonise the border regions, or would they quickly move into occupy Baja California and the Northern bits of Mexico - just to stop China or Venezuela for causing trouble there?

Other questions - would Aus/NZ join a confederation? Probably not at first, but would contribute population to the colonisation effort. What is Britain's position now that the EU/Nato is likely to be gone. A US/Canada/Aus/NZ/Britain alliance post-wave has about 100 million people and would still be a world power on par with Russia, at least.

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El Coqui mumbles...

Posted May 23, 2009
Well Puerto Rico had also "surplus" population between islanders and refugees with high unemployment rate and may look to Florida as a good destination. The US government may encouraged this as a way to start securing the southern borders against incursions from Venezuela or the attempted islamic landing in Fish Guts.

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Dan asserts...

Posted May 24, 2009
Matt: the total canadian army headcount is about ~55k. In the first Gulf War about 4500 soldiers were deployed under Operation Friction. Not sure if these can be used to secure the east coast...

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Dan would have you know...

Posted May 25, 2009
Correction: Operation Friction had a peak deployment of 2,700. Quote from wikipedia:

"Personnel were primarily attached to four units in the Persian Gulf region:

Canadian Task Group at sea;

the Canadian Air Task Group in Doha, Quatar;

the Joint Headquarters, Canadian Forces Middle East, in Manamah, Bahrain;

First Canadian Field Hospital at Al-Qaysumah"

It does not look to me like many ground troops to me...

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Dan mutters...

Posted May 25, 2009
Oops, Operation Friction was in the Gulf War. Do not know where my head was. In march 2003 there was a canadian deployment in Afghanistan.

There were 5 frigates deployed in the far east in march: HMCS Montreal, HMCS Winnipeg, HMCS Regina, HMCS Iroquois, HMCS Fredericton.

Unfortunately for the ground troops there is a window between two major deployments, the first one under operation Apollo ending in july 2002 and the next one under operation Athen, wit the troop deployments beginning in august 2003. In march 2003 there were just not too many ground canadian troops in Afghanistan.

I did not figure out how many canadian trops were deployed around the world with NATO in march 2003.

Very interesting page hear with the strength of the canadian armed forces: http://www.canadaka.net/content/page/115-canadian-forces. There is one Mechnized Brigade Group in Edmonton, Alberta.

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Respond to 'A North American Federation.'

Pepsi Challenge. London after the Wave.

Posted May 8, 2009 by John Birmingham
I've just driven Caitlin to London to begin her search for...

Well you'll have to wait to find out.

But London has changed.

I've been watching Children of Men with the voice over on, to get some ideas for how I might fashion a (sort of) post apocalypse City, but thought I might throw out a line here as well.

I'll give you  some tips. Very little private transport. Lots of rationing. High security presence on the streets. The south Asian population has been either ghettoised or deported. You can't run a business without the requisite forms from the Ministry of Resources. And even then it's pretty hard.

Think global financial crisis raised to the power of ten, and throw in the aftermath of race war.

Tories are back in power too.

100 Responses to ‘Pepsi Challenge. London after the Wave.’

NBlob reckons...

Posted May 8, 2009
hmm

Good thinks for 03:00.

Will get back to you

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HAVOCK is gonna tell you...

Posted May 8, 2009
yeah, let me digest this a tad.

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Brian swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 8, 2009
Where's the Royal familly? Can someone shoot Camilla? Can we posit Irish terrorists with strange francophile connections? Can we blow up the Chunnel? Where's the Australian Test team during all this?

The thought of refo camps on various sporting fields makes me happy.

I'll get back to you. Tweet conference.

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sparty reckons...

Posted May 8, 2009
Well you have south London sink estates – which would have all sorts of conflicts once the shackles were off,bit like Judge Dredd block wars – black gangs v black gangs or hoodies v black gangs or big anti asian violence (ie Muslim not the US definition) Chavs becoming an almost clockwork orange type force. Any or all of those combinations of conflicts could break out. I wouldn’t play the race angle up too much – focus more on just disperate communites having conflict that may or may not be different colours.

I’d push the whole “few imports” angle- particulary from the EU and would be tempted to have the Uk lean again on its commonwealth partners (OZ , New Zealand etc). Rationing but would people sit back and accept like during the war or has the nature of population changed.

Does London implode and government relocates or does the enw government drain resources from the rest of the country to prop London up? How does that effect Scotland and Northern Ireland both of whom have some sort of Devolution. Hard to imagine the idealistic side of the IRA (Adams rather than McGuiness not making a play for “total” victory).

JG Ballard wrote a great book about middle class uprising (Milllenium people I think). With a crewed economy what does the HUGE white collar population do.

Fear of the wave – mass migration from London?

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sparty is gonna tell you...

Posted May 8, 2009
and unless there is a f**D up nuclear winter it does not snow in August:-)

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Naut swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 8, 2009
There would be a great anti-establishment underground music scene.

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DrYobbo ducks in to say...

Posted May 8, 2009
Sounds like a complete fkn shithole. Pretty much as now then.

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Brian asserts...

Posted May 8, 2009
Here's one. Remember Hurricamne Katrina and the Superdrome(whatever) - posit the Millenium Stadium being used in such a fashion. Refo camp or deportee camp.

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HAVOCK has opinions thus...

Posted May 8, 2009
Themes would be full of floating humpies

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sparty swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 8, 2009
I can imagine army camp set up in Hyde Park etc (bit like having AA guns there during WW2), smuggling (people and stuff) out at Graves end etc with the Thames playing a much bigger role. Set pieces not at touristy iconic places but at old industrial places, the abandoned grounds of battersea powerstation, ruins / rebuiling of wembley - locatiosn such as Lords cricket ground repurposed. Again V for vendetta (movie rather than the actual comic) good source for inspiration.

I’m not a huge fan of the new doctor who but one ep “turn left” delat with an alternate Britain where the Doctor wasn’t around to save everyone- and captured a good post apocalyptic feel –subtle rather than being too dramatic.

Surburbs –do they thrive or go under – Guildford hoodies looting London or other way round?

And the biggie – quite a few guns around but in the hands of ,much narrower groups than in the States and might be highly prized.

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Lobes reckons...

Posted May 8, 2009
Absolutely what Dr Yobbo said. Having lived in London I kept waiting for your departure point about how this London is so different.

It never came.

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Lobes would have you know...

Posted May 8, 2009
Squats would be huge.

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sparty swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 8, 2009
oh and Ken Livingston would still be mayor(he ordered a special supply of tamiflu to keep london infrastrucure going a few years back - and the new Mayor Boris Johnson has just "given" it to central government)and I can imagine him making a bid for independant power (cicl wra without the guns)now that radical politics (ie socialism) might be back on the agenda...

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sparty puts forth...

Posted May 8, 2009
and feeling of London (via Heathrow) of being gateway to the States?

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Brian ducks in to say...

Posted May 8, 2009
Hmm . . . Chunnel. Nice way of getting rid of lots of people if you hold both ends. Intriguing . . .probably impractical.

No decent curry joints left in England.

FIFA would be done for.

Lots of empty Council housing.

Quite a few MP's would be gone because of their background. Red Ken would be in porridge. Lady Thatcher would have a significant post.

Amnesty International and Oxfam?

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sparty has opinions thus...

Posted May 8, 2009
nah Ken would hold up like the last days of the reich in the Eagles nest and i reackon if Lady Thatcher came out of hiding someone would take a pot shot at her.

PS Gordon Browns nazi photo shoot was hilarious

http://tinyurl.com/cwst28

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John Birmingham asserts...

Posted May 8, 2009
Keep it comin ppl. It's all good.

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John Birmingham is gonna tell you...

Posted May 8, 2009
Sparty, of the south asian popn, what's the hindu/muslim breakdown? And is there much meshing of those communities?

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mckinneytexas has opinions thus...

Posted May 8, 2009
I'm not clear on whether what seems like martial law is sitting well with folks or not? Seems like, if it is, by and large, the room for an underground economy, etc. is fairly thin. I don't get why would government not want new businesses starting up. That seems counter intuitive.

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Brian swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 8, 2009
Hmm . . .bit dubious about GB being sealed - as in an Iron curtain type operation. The RN isn't what it was. I see leakage from the Irish Sea and Scotland. The Channel has a mind boggling traffic pattern. Then there are all the deep sea trawlers and the like. Fuel will be a problem. Likewise food.

London is unsealable. Its huge. Internal security can't be met with the standing forces. Britain is at the end of its tether trying to do Afghanistan and Iraq in the present day.

The current GFC highlights the financial meltdown in The City - expect a severe depressio . . . .ooops . . . .market correction. Deflation . . . .bad deflation.

There will be thousands if not tens of thousands of foreigners, displaced persons, stateless types ie Seppo's, Mexicans, Australians, Kiwi's . .. . .even French within Britains borders.

More as I think on it . . .

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sparty mutters...

Posted May 8, 2009
Well brick lane way (east end) you can get agro between Bangdeshis and Indians (Hindus). Although those communities may live in the same place they most certainly aren’t together. Monica Alis brick lane would be good background for that. I think about 10-15% of the London pop would fall under the Indian, Pakistani / Bangladeshi ethnic origin goups –with Indian being half that number. I could imagine a growing but not particularly successful militancy. Blood letting on any scale would be more likely between rival groups (ie bangaldesh v Indians) than muslim v white etc.

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Lobes is gonna tell you...

Posted May 8, 2009
Think its a fairly right wing govt. Think Jackboots and 'Show me zee papers' in a british accent.

But London is vastly different to the rest of England, always has been. I lived in London in the early 2000's it was on a knifes edge. When 9/11 went down we knew we could be next. In response duct tape sales were pretty much untouched while alcohol skyrocketed. It was a 24/7 bingeathon. After the tube bombings was even worse. Not to mention the train drivers strike, various electrical blackouts and the propensity of the tube system to collapse and leave millions stranded in pubs. Cheap alcohol was everywhere and drugs freely available if you knew the right tube stop to get off of. There is absolutely no doubt if we had just seen the USA obliterated by the wave then the first thing to go in London would be sobriety.

There were some ethnic tensions there. Particularly in the inner east with the large Bangladeshi pop in Tower Hamlets and Brick Lane. Further south in Brixton was a large Afro-Carribean population while a lot of the Arab population was around Bayswater and Queensway (sorry I'm reffing Tube stops here but its how I got around lol)

Spartys right about the gangs. Chavs are pretty much a clockwork orange like force already in some areas.

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sparty puts forth...

Posted May 8, 2009
"first thing to go in London would be sobriety" LOL!

Don't undersetimate how time of year would be crucial- a good summer would help violence kick off - if it all takes place in winter then I think Police state has an easier time of it

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Tech mumbles...

Posted May 9, 2009
Think Northern Ireland in the 70's with local army/police/millia units given badges and big fuck off guns, which atually happened.

Backyard amoured up vans and land rovers doing all night patrols non british citerzens living in government controlled ghettos. Kinda like the nazis in WWII with the jews but without the gas chambers. Rationed foods and all with identity cards. There just not allowed to own anything of real value like a house. Emplyed as toliet scrubbers and such. Marched into city proper them marched back to ghetto under heavy guard. Major UK cities are all like this civilain armies are welcomed by the white middle class as its there protection. Regular army intergrated to police force and secruity service. " UK Home services "

Everyone ID card carrier. No card no work permit no food card etc. NON brits decided by " UK home sevices " sop if your 4th generation but non white .. your not brtish. All media outlets govermenrt controlled all company assets now government controlled included private farms. NOn brits do all the farming. Immagration suspened. No one in no one out unless your connected. MASSIVE black market in EU USA CHINA goods comes in vis chunnel/ Ireland ferries light aircraft etc. Little radar coverage or shore patrols as there is no money or equipment to do so. Alchol drugs near free and legal. keep peoplem pissed they dont realized there opressed.

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Trashman asserts...

Posted May 9, 2009
I enjoyed the first story and will definitely get the next book, but I'm still not convinced about the whole Festung UK thing. Why would there be a sudden crackdown? The Asian population isn't exactly a monlothic block either.

The wave patently wasn't a terrorist attack and most of the middle ease no longer exists. What, exactly, was the trigger? Did I miss something in the book?

If something like this kicked off in the UK without something explicit to cause the population to give tacit consent (that something would require massive civilian casualties), I don't think the government would be in power for very long. Think the Poll Tax riots raised by several orders of magnitude. I don't even know if the Police or Army would obey orders like that. They're volunteers remember.

Just my tuppenceworth.

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Tucker Dwynn would have you know...

Posted May 9, 2009
'The Torries didn't take over in a power grab... They were the only party willing to try and pick up the pieces...'

Either that could be the sitrep, or that's the party line they use. Just thinking that with everything going to hell would the Libs (knowing just how bad off the UK is going to be) or Labour really have a chance to try and rebuild, or would they intentionally try to lose, so they could clam "Look how bad the Torries are doing!" When they want to try and stage a comeback.

just my 3 cents... I'm generous like that (/joke)

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Mark R. Whittington reckons...

Posted May 9, 2009
Leader of the Tories at the time of the Wave woud be Iain Duncan Smith and, as I recall, was not very impressive. In OTL he was dumped in October, 2003.

I'm not sure that Maggie gets anything more than a ceremonial post, depending on when the strokes started to happen.

I can see someone rising from the back benches, in a kind of Francis Urquart style (g).

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Matthew K is gonna tell you...

Posted May 9, 2009
As a Brit I have to confess here that I'm with Trashman on this. I'll accept one incredible event (the Wave) but not loads of them. UK and France suddenly losing their minds is too weird. Especially because they couldn't afford to in such an uncertain world, the EU would stick together, things would become less democratic what with emergency laws etc.

Why go after the Muslims?

If there were any refugee camps they wouldn't be in the crowded south of the country; think Wales, Scotland or something. What's happened to Ireland? (Republic of)

Tories are the Conservative party don't forget, they want to conserve the UK not smash it, anyway Tony Blair would have been up for the challenge of the Wave, look at his speech he made immediately after 9/11. He wouldn't have let the Tories in, could see a government of national unity from all parties maybe...

Ken Livingstone might have done well out of it though, that rings true.

And armoured Land-Rovers, I like that. It needs Defenders with spotlights and grills all over them. That's just me though, I never need a reason to justify squared off utility vehicles.

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Matthew K has opinions thus...

Posted May 9, 2009
Trashman: "I don’t even know if the Police or Army would obey orders like that." This. I shouldn't think they're any more likely to do this than their Aussie counterparts. Could you imagine them going along with this?

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Matthew K would have you know...

Posted May 9, 2009
If there was a law and order crackdown then stupid, white trash would feel the brunt, as they are the majority of the annoying fuckers who get on people's tits. Outside of London at least.

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Murphy swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 9, 2009
Ah, Francis Urquart is a PM I could support. :)

I suspect you'd see more bicycles and horses.

Respects,

Murph

On the Outer Marches

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mckinneytexas has opinions thus...

Posted May 9, 2009
I remain unclear: i don't see Americans, Aussies or Brits suppressing their own or the people putting up with it. I do see, for a finite period, the people going along with a fair amount of restrictions due to unavoidable rationing. but i also see these same people turning out to collaborate on mitigating food and fuel shortages.

I guess the Muslim angle is that, perhaps in response to 80% of the Middle East being obliterated, there is a bit of reactive surliness. Or, the Muslims simply went into revolt, or were feared to be heading that way, as an extension of events in France.

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sparty mumbles...

Posted May 9, 2009
Yep- Trashman is right- not sure we'd have an extreme overreacton here race wise, but then where's the story!

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tygertim swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 9, 2009
JB, what of the London Ghurka community? I'd love to see them doing something active, as I've a soft spot for them... I can just see a confrontation between them and some South Asians >:) wouldn't that be a humdinger of a match. I'd pay to watch. Maybe Prince Harry pulls them under his wing?

I dunno though, I can see an anti Muslim backlash... They've been active in enforcing their views of how things should be. I've read of a case where a nice old lady who collected porcelain pigs had it confiscated because Muslims could see it through her windows as they walked to Mosque and found it insulting. They took her to court and won, but she refused to remove the offensive porcelain porkers and the judge sent in the constabulary... I don't know how reliable this is as the source of information is the Gates of Vienna site... there are apparently a lot of little things like that that have been annoying the National Front folks... so there's your possible flash point... some of London's' more radical reactionary Clerics preach one fiery sermon too many and a riot develops? Or perhaps it's sparked off by a group of really devout South Asian youths whom throw acid into the face of a tarted up London teen on the bus? Or perhaps the radicals take the wave as a sign from Allah to act? It wouldn't take much in that sort of situation, where there is major anxiety and out right fear in the general population...

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Quokka would have you know...

Posted May 9, 2009
I like the idea of a nasty outbreak of ebola.

One of the Royals could bring it back from an orphanage in Zaire.

If not them then perhaps someone they're dating.

No good deed goes unpunished, right?

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tygertim reckons...

Posted May 9, 2009
Here's a Challenge for you JB. Take all of my comments and make a chapter of it! The Ghurkhas come to the aid of the Teen Tart after a radical Cleric's sermon sparked a riot and that set off the Devout into action on the bus? I know you can do better.....

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tygertim swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 9, 2009
Ohhhhh, quokka, that sooo deliciously evil! I love it!

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Quokka mutters...

Posted May 9, 2009
Then again on the practical side of things any disaster zone just ends up with diarrhoea. Its just that Ebola seems much more exciting than cholera and typhoid. Seriously, JB, I think you need to think about what happens in this scenario with disease control. You fuck up the infrastructure, people get sick. Not necessarily Stephen King The Stand type sick, but things do get ugly.

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Quokka swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 9, 2009
Toilet paper shortage? And maybe some rationing. And then some black marketeering.

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Quokka reckons...

Posted May 9, 2009
Wait! Madonna likes plucking children out of orphanages. As do others on the pages of Who Weekly. And with no-one to stop them...yep. I take it back. The Stand, revisited.

Or maybe a batch of botox could go bad and foot and mouth could envelop the Polo Set.

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Matthew K mutters...

Posted May 9, 2009
Tyger: There wouldn't be much Gurkha community in 2003 London as their right of residence is only now being noisily hammered out in public as Labour politicians are chased around the room with Patsy from AbFab snapping at their heels. And very entertaining it is too.

Apparently 77% of Muslims are loyal to the UK as opposed to 36% of the rest of the population. (!!) According to today's Times.

There was a very large black market in WW2 UK, if there were restrictions and shortages history would repeat itself. Britons aren't naturally orderly, respectful or law abiding and we have a long history of smart arse talking back. (They didn't ship ALL the political subversives abroad you know.)

Sounds like JG Ballard would be a good source of inspiration. I know I keep mentioning him, but these scenarios JB comes up with put me in mind of his stuff.

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andyf swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 9, 2009
theyre already on about identity cards.

any crack down would be carefully manipulated by HMG through the press,

the people would be clamouring for it.

Im thinkin the jihads-inspired by wave- threat would be suficient,

some mass attacks that were 'allowed' to happen, the Sun and Daily mail screaming for security..

oh yeah, it could happen here.

and the point about the guns..

in UK for a firearms licence you have to provide a good reason for a gun, and 4 passport photos.

1 in on the licence you get, 1 is obviously for police records,,

noone has a clue where the others are,

in any situation of widespread civil unrest expect a knock on the door in the first hours.

TA guarding the streets etc

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Matthew K ducks in to say...

Posted May 9, 2009
andyf: Sounds like the plot of V for Vendetta (film.)

Firearms are pretty durn rare here. I was thinking of applying for a .17hmr but as I was found in possession of too much hash in my youth... Shotguns more common.

Bottom line: HMG would keep most of the monopoly on the use of armed force.

Govt could get away with some shit I guess, and they could find idiots to do their bidding. But once their enemies united against a common enemy and got together there would be a lack of support. And guns can be manufactured. Think of the sten.

But more likely, the politicians involved would find themselves more and more isolated and one day their guards would become their jailers.

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Bondiboy66 mutters...

Posted May 9, 2009
Look up the old post-nuclear war telemovie 'Threads' on Google Video. That's some serious pommie post-apocalyptic vision right there.

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Matthew K puts forth...

Posted May 9, 2009
Not to say I can't see a lot more officiousness, just not a full on dictatorship.

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Lobes mumbles...

Posted May 9, 2009
TygerTim I have never heard of The Gates of Vienna site before. But to judge it solely off the name it sounds like a fairly radical anti-muslim website.

Vienna, of course, was as far as the Ottoman empire got in its invasion of Europe in the 16th Century. The invading army got as far as Vienna which they besieged for over a year until backup in the form of Polish Cavalry swept down and expelled them. Interestingly in this conflict we had the first widespread use of explosives to attempt to bring down the city walls. The Ottomans would dig long tunnels under the Viennese walls and pack them with explosives. They used professional miners to dig their tunnels and ever since then military explosives used in that way have been known as 'mines' but I digress.

Anytime you hear an phrase implying the invasion and/or defence of Vienna its likely they are referencing the cultural touchstone of the the Ottoman invasion. Of course I may be wrong but the little old lady with the porcelain pig story does sound like classic fearmongering.

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NBlob mumbles...

Posted May 9, 2009
With the lift in the block of council flats out of action again the old man with the cane takes almost forty minutes to get down to the allotment. He shows his identity card to the truculant darky at the gate and hobbles down to his little patch. He weeds his plots of carrots and notices the peas are coming along nicely. Six trips to the tap with the watering can and he's almost done. He tugs at one of the bushes and pull up a small bundle of spuds, "two more weeks and they'll be right" he mutters to himself "I'll sell a pound or two of them to the old Chinaman at the back of the pub, then I might be able to buy some of me heart medicine."

As he wraps his scarf around his neck and slaps the dirt from his gloves he hears a disturbance at the gate. He looks up to see an argument between the Darky Jonas, and a mob that are milling around outside the high wire gate. "That's all I need" thinks the old man. Then movement catches his eye, he sees four young men coming over the back fence, "pincer movement just like Belgium."

The old man knows that unless he and Jonas turn these Chavz there will be no Carrots, Peas or Spuds as this kind of raid has been going on across London for weeks now. He's heard that a pound of fresh potatoes are fetching more than a mans daily wage 'on the black.'

"Lets see if I remember my bayonet training" he thinks as as he neatly lays his coat and gloves on the ground and draws a four foot star picket from beside the compost pile and settles his footing.

"C'mon you little bastards, I'll show you old school."

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Lobes mumbles...

Posted May 9, 2009
LoL "Get off my Lawn" sounds a bit more intimidating when you're waving a star picket. Man, I've seen somebody get smashed with one of those... not cool at all. Fucking gruesome in fact.

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Matthew K reckons...

Posted May 9, 2009
Oooh. I LIKE that NBob.

Now am off to google star picket.

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HAVOCK asserts...

Posted May 9, 2009
Just a small item, have you thought about the North Sea and all those OIL RIGS up there!. where is the UK's refining capacity located as well.

I wonder how much of the RN would be detailed to keeping these babies in service..then add the chunnel issues of surface transit. I see a lot of sorta suitable vessels being converted to ARMED TRAWLERS, troops deployed on rigs as well.

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HAVOCK mutters...

Posted May 9, 2009
OK some other items as well. Maybe OT a bit.

Infrastructure.

Gas and electricity, sewage, water and telecoms. All the networks need to be maintained in some fashion. Are people pressed into doing maint, are only small teams available for this, whats critical to be maintained.

Then toss in say ROAD maint gangs as well, paid, Voluntary or forced as well.

HEATING: BIG ONE, co's if services are out, then trees are it. Landowners are not gunna like that much, the rapid deforestation of their land, or will the gummit, detail certain areas for lopping.

Then you will have issues such as the Fire Dept, London is High density, what happens with a fire outbreak, people been doing HOME repairs etc and all sorts of stuff. MAYBE London burns to da ground again, or a large part. that then makes a lotta people homeless as well.

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NBlob mumbles...

Posted May 9, 2009
Silver Lining.

9 weeks of martial law and closed borders had done for Jojo what four bouts of rehab had not been able to achieve - she was off the junk. As her head cleared and the pains & chills receded into a dim memory she took stock. Her years on the junk had ruined her body and face, but had not dimmed the rat-cunning that was her sole inheritance from First Law Lord Sir Wiliam Henderon-Lyons. Her years working street corners and phone box ads had given her a crystal insight into the baser tastes of men, particularly men of power. Now she combined the two.

She had acquired a nondescript 2 bedroom flat on Maiden Lane 2 blocks from The Strand, she had gathered a stable of eight working girls and had forged working relationships with a couple of men she considered "strategic business partners." In return for free executive services they provided her with the other crucial elements of the business - mobility & invisibility. A weekly official chit for 20 litres of diesel gave her 'round the clock use of a taxi. Identity passes for her girls in a couple of different names kept them below the radar. Fresh and tinned food kept her girls ahead of the scabborous scags practically giving it away on street corners. Her clientelle paid top money for top quality and Quality is what she provided.

As the borders had closed and Martial Law had come into effect many had been trapped behind what had come to be known as the Burberry Curtain. The Arab princess had fled in their lear jets leaving their entourage to fend for themselves, many Aupairs and Nannys had been flung out on the street, and the Eastern European girls - the work horses of the "escort business" for the last ten years had been left without papers.

Jojo had picked the cream of this crop and had set them to work.

Yep, the end of the world certainly seemed to have a silver lining for Jojo.

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Matthew K ducks in to say...

Posted May 9, 2009
UK does have a lot of coal Havock - look forward to London fog returning! And it's called the Fire Brigade over here, and I think they'd stay working.

N'other nice one NBob.

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Lobes ducks in to say...

Posted May 9, 2009
They tightened building regulations considerably after 1666 too so you dont see the types of fires and stuff that are common in American cities.

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lostatlunch ducks in to say...

Posted May 9, 2009
There are large marching music... spliffy uniforms almost germanic in stature.. the Poms are not above blaming "others" same as the germans did in the 50's and a crowd pleaseing charasmatic leader like Obama could take them down that path.

Someone else is to blame and the english are people who like a good queue. France went to crap and I can see the British people welcoming a firm hand to keep the country functioning... Even Phillip counseling lizzy to keep the right people in place.

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DrYobbo has opinions thus...

Posted May 9, 2009
Very minor point - while the Millennium stadium could be used as a Superdome style holding pen, it's in Cardiff rather than London. Which would probably make sending peeps there the cultural equiv of Guantanamo Bay. New Wembley has no lid. Wouldn't have been building Olympics stuff either given they'd not have won the rights to the games by Wave time. East end - as was.

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NBlob mumbles...

Posted May 9, 2009
Mr Nahassaheemapetalon was justifiably proud of his home, his shop and his family.

His house was noticeably neater than the others in the street. His neighbours had joked with him, before the wave, that he must use a jig to trim his topiary as the corners were so perfectly squared. His shop, a mixed business was an off-licence that stocked some dry goods, a few dairy lines (they went off so quickly) and the usual newsagency lines of smokes & lottery tickets. His family consisted of his sainted mother, a withered bitter old crone of a mother-in-law, his wife and his youngest two daughters. His girls were the apples of his eye. God had not seen his way to bless him with a son, but his girls - what girls they were, enough to make his chest puff out every time he thought of them. The oldest was a programmer - not that he had any real idea what that required - but he knew she had blitzed her O & A levels, topped her class at university and had been courted by several of the biggest software brands in Europe. The second oldest worked in The City in business banking and was due to be engaged to that gormless clot from the temple. Mr Nahassaheemapetalon thought her suitor was about as bright as a ten-watt bulb, but he would provide for his daughter and grandchildren-to-be and his daughter seemed happy with him.

Mr Nahassaheemapetalon had voted Tory since he had arrived in 1967. He had always hated that insincere toad Blair and his party of sunshine & lollipops merchants. When the wave had fallen on America and the Israelis has erased the Arabs he knew the time had come for a strong man at the helm and the current Tory PM had not let him down. There was order in the streets of London unlike across the Channel where the Frogs seemed to be finding new & improved ways of killing each other every second day.

Each morning at five he walked the mile and half to his store, took in the papers, received the milkman’s grumbles and stock and set to work. Since the Wave & the Troubles on the continent many of the lines had become harder to restock and some of the prices he had to pay were outrageous. Those Trotskyists at the Manchester Guardian had blamed the new Government, not any longer. He hadn't received a Guardian in 3 months and doubted he'd be seeing it any time soon. The Sun and News of the World had the inside story. They knew what was going on & weren’t afraid to tell the public exactly who was at fault: the bloody Muslims & their towel-headed ilk.

This morning was grey and overcast with a light drizzle falling as Mr Nahassaheemapetalon set to his jobs for the morning. He was sweeping the floor and muttering darkly about the rubbish people tracked into his shop when he heard the bass rumbling of a mob coming down the street. This wasn’t the first civil unrest he had seen in the neighbourhood and he paused on the shop’s stoop wondering if he should close up, he decided against it. When the mobs milled and eddied past the shop he often got customers popping in for a couple of cans and a packs of smokes, it could make a big difference to his days takings. The vanguard of the mob turned the corner. They were carrying hand written & poorly spelled ‘Anti Paki’ placards and chanting “kick the Towel heads out.”

They did not march past - they stopped outside his store. Mr Nahassaheemapetalon couldn’t believe it. He was a good British Citizen. He’d been a fixture on this corner for 20 years. He had done all he could to blend in with the community. He was trusted. For God’s sake he was a Sikh not a Muslim.

The first rocks rained down on Mr Nahassaheemapetalon as he tried to reason with the mob. He heard his windows smash. He was driven to the ground by stones, boots, fists and axe handles. He saw the mob surge over him into his shop and loot the sparsely stocked shelves. The last thing he heard was one yob jeer as he ran past with an armload of booty

"Thankyou, come again."

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NBlob ducks in to say...

Posted May 9, 2009
Ok. Stopping now.

Damn you & your Pepsi challenges JB.

At 0300 I was staring at the ceiling thinking these 3 over & round & back & over again.

No wonder SWMBO gets p!ssy about my blogging.

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DrYobbo mumbles...

Posted May 9, 2009
Know the feeling NBob, and it's only gotten worse - joined Twunter.

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Brian asserts...

Posted May 9, 2009
Hmm . . .wonder what's happened to the European Common Market? The French have probably drunk their wine lake.

I also wonder about all the Brits who have pulled up their roots and are now living in Majorca and Spain.

Thinking about Brit security. The most heavilly surveillanced country in the world with all their CCTV's everywhere.

Hyde Psrk;s 'Speakers Corner' will be an ever so interesting place.

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Chaz mumbles...

Posted May 9, 2009
Hmm it'd be like Thatchers Britain all over again but with CCTV camera, and instead of the IRA it'd be AQ inspired militias from finsbury park and leicester.

Of course JB you already said in WW that there were race riots. Sequestraion of the muslim asians, Afrocarribean communities thinking 'thank god it's them taking the can this time', The indian community helping the gov however they can, to stick the knife into the pakistanis.

Any form of speratism stamped down on the SNP attacked by scottish labour for trying the wreck thr country. the welsh assembly shut down duie to the emergancy. In ulster a hushed calm, waiting to see if the Prodies and Fenians have another go at each other.

Meanwhile white little england see the threat from asia and the middle east. Edgewhere road is like down town beirut with most of the cafe's and restaurants either sealed up or burnt out. 1 in 2 mosques burnt out those left have a guard for protection from the new 'Specials' a milita set up to help the police force with public order issues basically the SPG reaminated but with civvies not police.

In the countryside movement is regulated by pass papers farmers protect their land fiercly and trepassers are treated harshly. Townies are not welocme esp those who had second homes in the villages. Those that make it out to the country find their cottages either buirnt out or having been taken over thanks to the village council. ie better the place goes to a local couple not some rich townies who's never there except one weekend in two.

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CraigWA mumbles...

Posted May 9, 2009
You might have military putting checkpoints on all of the bridges. You've got at least 2 road tunnels, multiple train/tube tunnels and at least 1 pedestrian tunnel (south end of Isle of Dogs) under the Thames. Would you be controlling movement?

City of London and Canary Wharf aren't going to be the thriving hub of banking any more. The Square Mile is home to about 30,000 people but 300,000 people come to work there every day. It might be a bit of a wasteland inside London. Isle of Dogs probably isn't the same because there is a lot more new residential down there.

Have they done something interesting with the London Eye?

Oxford Street and Regent street would also be radically changed because nobody would have anything to sell.

During WW II, they had all of the parks turned into vegetable gardens. Depending on how long this has been going on, you might do the same. If you go to the supermarkets in the UK, the bulk of the fruit and vegetables come from overseas. Huge culture shock for people living here going back to 60s type locally grown diet.

As I moved to the UK in 2003 I have some clear memories of what it was like at that point. It was the era of the coffee shop with 6 different chains operating in London. There will be a lot of coffee shops that are boarded up, trashed or just closed because they can't get coffee and the business model wasn't working at that point because if 1 in 3 shops is a coffee shop, there aren't enough customers.

Wembley Stadium was being constructed and probably never got finished. The gherkin was also under construction at that time and probably never got finished.

All of the well to do's in London have probably evacuated to their second holiday homes in the country because when you get down to it, it's probably a nicer place to stay than London which is likely to be the focus of lots of race riots.

Things to do. Might come back and try to think of more later.

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Matthew K reckons...

Posted May 9, 2009
I'd expect to see some sort of national govt. propaganda campaign encouraging social cohesion to avoid events like NBob describes. The silent majority REALLY wouldn't mind seeing a mob of rampaging scum getting machine gunned to protect a Hindu corner shop. We like Hindu corner shops.

A spot of fully automatic riot control would send the right message: pour encourager les autres, as the French say. (Shouldn't that be discourage?)

And "Ordnung muss sein" as the Germans say. At the end of the day we don't mind people mouthing off but we do get irritated by disorder. And that's when things are going well.

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Murphy would have you know...

Posted May 10, 2009
There is going to be a shortage of tea, I suspect, following on what CraigWA said about coffee shops.

Respects,

Murph

On the Outer Marches

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Sweet Jane Says mumbles...

Posted May 10, 2009
England has endured Romans, Vikings, the French, the plague, the Spanish, Colonial resistance, WW I, an American divorcee, and WW II. I don't imagine she'd fall apart because the US is zapped.

J.

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lostatlunch would have you know...

Posted May 10, 2009
fear & panic are vastly under estimated motivators.

What any of us, on a personal level, would do after the psychological shock of the wave is hard to imagine.

What someone in power, like Blair, could do is hard to imagine. he is in as much shock as the rest of us.

What sort of influence could a regular knutjob like Pauline Hanson muster?

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Quokka ducks in to say...

Posted May 10, 2009
But will they have cable?

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Trowzers mutters...

Posted May 10, 2009
I haven't read the other comments yet but - why not just watch V for Vendetta? (or read the graphic novel- they are not the same but both good). Sounds just like what you are describing :)

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Sweet Jane Says asserts...

Posted May 10, 2009
Great Britain was alive before the US; Great Britain would live after the US.

J.

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John Birmingham ducks in to say...

Posted May 10, 2009
I love Lobes' end of sobriety idea so much I wish I'd put it in the first book.

NBob, awesome stuff.

As for repression, and race based argy bargy, I'll tweak the copy in light of some above comments.

But I think we can assume there was some unpleasantness after Israel launched the Second Holocaust.

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sparty mumbles...

Posted May 10, 2009
SJ - and so say us all!

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NBlob is gonna tell you...

Posted May 10, 2009
Thankyou sir.

Just do me one small favour?

No more than one Pepsi per month?

I don't know if my tired little brain can hack the (entirely self imposed) pressure.

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Matthew K ducks in to say...

Posted May 11, 2009
Thank you SJ.

But... NO COFFEE! That's a riotin'. Lack of tea? Not so much. Not nowadays. (I had no idea the lack of a USA would lead to coffee and tea shortages, all the more for the rest of us I would've thought... )

There would be heavy handed and clumsy govt. and it wouldn't necessarily very efficient. Tories would try and shrink the state but not it's security apparatus. Labour would want to starve the security goons while working them to death and old Labour types would want the state in parts of the economy and society where it has failed before. We might see a resurgence of the old pre socialist type of utopian radicalism like the Levellers/Diggers/Chartists, some sort of attempt to build Jerusalem. ... ?

Trowzers: The graphic novel of V for Vendetta is much better, and does have exactly the austerity Britain vibe that JB has described, with a tatty, grey feel to it. I figure JB has read it already as this London scenario seems familiar.

Wartime Britain and the Austerity that followed it were characterised by rationing, a ubiquitous "fell off the back of a lorry" black market, a "make do and mend" attitude and weary stoicism. I reckon those things could return.

But one thing is different: Britons. My strong impression is of a much meaner minded nation in the '40s, this is where the whinging poms stereotype came from I think. I feel that Brits then were much more likely to be pursed lipped curtain twitchers with chips on their shoulders re class. (Not all, but many)It may just be that 6 years of total war had leached all the gaiety from them. (Aussie troops were regarded as being insolent and not nearly deferential enough. By officers.)

Point is; the culture has changed, Brits aren't nearly so deferential or resentful now, so how would we react to shortages of both freedom and commodities? Yes, there would be unrest. There would also. I feel, be a great deal of popular pressure on those in charge to be very, very good at their jobs and scant patience if they were less than brilliant.

(I'd meant to use the culture clash between mean minded temps and the 21C Brits as background in a bit of AoT fanfic but never got around to it.)

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The Great Destroyer swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 11, 2009
Your assumptions are too optimistic.

You're going to get the race war, all right, but traditional Britain is going to lose.

Think blocks of rubble, no water or electricity, dead bodies left to bloat and rot, and Sharia law enforced across the city by roving gangs of male Islamists enforcing it via public torture and executions.

Think Lebanon circa 1982.

Think Liberia circa 1990.

That's your future.

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Arty swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 11, 2009
I hope that degraded standard of living doesn't spread to any civilized countries.

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Chuck Simmins reckons...

Posted May 11, 2009
Infrastructure. The miles of sewers beneath London, and the abandoned tunnels for them and the subway. Tidal barriers in river fail, or worse, stick in closed position.

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NukemHill mutters...

Posted May 11, 2009
I haven't much to contribute re: London, but I'm glad I found this site. I read Without Warning shortly after it was released here in the US. Looooooooooooved it!

I've got all kinds of interesting ideas about what happens here during the "Recovery". (Don't know what you are going to call it.) But there are so many reasons for pitched battles between the US Recovery Team(s) and the various International Vultures. How do you protect key scientific/military installations? (the nuke sites alone are too many to count) How do you reconstitute the farm lands? Will there be any effort put into discovering what caused the Anomoly? (I'm betting it was a research project gone wrong.) Does the US government keep control only of Hawaii, Gitmo, and the Pacific NW? Or does it try to enforce sovereignty from border to border? Does the government devolve into a loose Federation? And the international scene (which is what you're addressing in part here, obviously) can't really be anything less than a total meltdown (which was well on its way in the WW). Commerce as we know it, both nationally and internationally has to pretty much disappear on a macro level. Those of us who are libertarian-minded would see this as an opportunity to start the US economy from scratch, with huge restrictions on governmental powers.

I'm really looking forward to how you resolve some completely unavoidable situations.

Darn it! Why couldn't you have just written the whole damn thing at once?! I hate waiting for sequels....

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NukemHill mutters...

Posted May 11, 2009
Oh, yeah. All the precious metal reserves have to be protected.

Yes, I've been thinking about this a lot. Why do you ask? ;-)

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richardb mumbles...

Posted May 11, 2009
Symbols of British power are gutted. Westminster burned and looted.

Big Ben, a bent, blacken husk.

Tubes used for mass graves since fuel is scare.

Trafalgar Square still the scene of public executions of past British Labor politicians blamed for multiculturalism and pacifism in the face of Islam.

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Fat Man mumbles...

Posted May 11, 2009
Fascinating. You people cannot see what is in front of you.

A surveillance state straight out of 1984 and East German reality. You have the cameras on every corner, how soon are they in your houses?

Political correctness enforced by thug cops. Try warning people about the rising tide of jihad, or the global warming scam.

All industry and electricity banned to save Gaia. The return of plague and pox. The return of "pea-soup fogs" caused by burning "sea-coal" and wood, because electricity and natural gas are no longer avaiable.

A dictatorship of the proletariat run by Islamic militants who impose sharia and send women to purdah.

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dustydog is gonna tell you...

Posted May 11, 2009
Y'all got it completely backward. Britons are made of sterner stuff; a collapse of society will burn off the dross. London would be ruled by a king, with absolute authority and legal ownership of all people and property. Brutally efficient knights, intelligent pragmatic decision-making. Strong family bonds, right to work (i.e. to use state land or property to work) would depend upon trust. The people would love and support their king, and his representatives. Crime would be low.

Without regard for race, people refusing to accept the state would have been ruthlessly put down. Lebanon, Mogadishu - they are the product of a different culture.

If you need a government form, you'd be proud to have it, and would display it. People coming into your business would look at it and remark upon it.

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Wes S. would have you know...

Posted May 11, 2009
John, I just found this post via Glenn Reynolds over at Instapundit. I bought "Without Warning" - largely on Glenn's recommendation - and loved it. (As a resident of the Kansas City area, I especially got a kick out of your descriptions of post-Wave KC, and did a double-take at your description of the bombed-out Quik-Trip on Armour Road in North Kansas City; I work in Northtown and had actually bought gas at that particular QT the week before "Without Warning" was released in the US.) I'm looking forward to the sequel.

My take on post-Wave England is that they'd have some of the same problems that NukemHill described the post-Wave US facing, although instead of "international vultures" you'd have internal factions tearing up the country. I'm not sure how much the British military could do to prevent the situation; Britain has really built down their military since the end of the Cold War and in the "Without Warning" timeline most of what they had circa 2003 was in the Middle East deployed for Operation Iraqi Freedom...and is still there trying to keep a lid on what's left of the Middle East after Saddam's fall and Israel pushing the nuclear button.

So, with the British military out of the way, I think you'd have various armed gangs (criminal, racial, ethnic, you name it) running wild. I'd expect younger Muslims to do the same (much as you depicted happening in France in WW). I think nationalist and seperatist movements would further fracture the country (Tony Blair arguably started that process by setting up seperate Scottish and Welsh Parliaments).

And I'd think the fear and uncertainty of ordinary British citizens, who have already been largely disarmed, subjected to all sorts of infringements on their civil liberties and all kinds of intereference in their lives by bureaucrats, facing out-of-control levels of crime, and are increasingly becoming fed up with all of the above, would morph pretty quickly into rage if something like the Wave and the resulting chaos broke down civil order in the country.

And to keep order all the British government would have is what little of the military wasn't already deployed overseas and a largely disarmed police force...which I think would almost panic the government into some sort of martial-law crackdown that arguably might make things even worse...because ordinary citizens would see that they weren't really in control and might even see the government as just one more batch of thugs.

Oh yes: I think post-Wave London would look like a cross between "V for Vendetta" and "Mad Max." And if the UK ever did get things sorted out - they'd probably end up under some sort of totalitarian government - one wonders if they'd be one of NukemHill's "international vultures" trying to plunder what's left of North America...

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Matthew K ducks in to say...

Posted May 11, 2009
Thank you dustydog, exactly what I reckon. Except we have a Queen here.

OK yes there would be unrest, and London would have it's Beirut like neighbourhoods, but there's plenty of non-white Brits who are as old school British as the Queen. (I know some of them.) So not every ethnic neighbourhood would need to be patrolled by armoured Land-Rovers.

I've Muslim blokes who fitted seamlessly into the working class environment of white vans, short cropped hair and steel toecap boots. It's a question of attitude: Muslims tend to stay "working class" as opposed to Hindus who are after for professional status from the get go.

London's big infrastructure components would be kept going because it would have to be, it's that simple.

You would have internal factions but those who choose extra parliamentary methods would have to be treated as traitors...

Access to firearms would skew things though, they are rare here. (Legal ones anyway). Those that had them would be in a position of power. But how difficult is it to manufacture guns in a country like this? Guns are not near as complicated as a car engine and the UK is full of blokes who can build those. You'd need a workshop and an engineer or two. (?) I'd think cartridges would be the problem.

Anyhow I would expect that people would insist on a right to keep and bear arms if the forces of law n' order couldn't keep the scum in their barrios.

And how long would it take to get the forces back here if it really was time critical? One month max, eh?

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Matthew K puts forth...

Posted May 11, 2009
And Wes S: Our cops do have guns - G36s, MP5s and Glock 17s. Not every officer is trained to use them but there are a few. And then there's army stockpiles, I think there must be quite a lot of L1A1 FN FALs raked somewhere.

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Brian mumbles...

Posted May 11, 2009
Disturbs me that the prize is Pepsi. If'n it was somehing like : 20 minutes snatch and grab from JB's liqour cabinet . . . .yeah . . .

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NukemHill mumbles...

Posted May 11, 2009
How about a shadow/exile government being established "elsewhere"? Maybe in Scotland or Wales? Prolly not Ireland! The "Loyalists" would be a confederation of pre-Collapse British government officials, military leaders, and royalists. They'd be the ones aligned with the US.

It's pretty much assumed that the Internet as we've come to know it disappears, yes? That obviously has an enormous impact on communications. Is the international satellite network stable? If not, then even more communication breakdowns result. (You may have already started this process; I'm not remembering all of the details from WW.) I'd count on the undersea cables being cut, probably by pirates.

Even better, I'd have one of the Vultures (with a legitimate sea presence) focus on cutting off all land/sea-based communication networks to and from the US. And that could be a battle that Britain fights against their enemies, too.

Are you going to have any long-term environmental issues arise from Israel's nuclear attacks in the Middle-East? That would be some nice salt to pour on the wound, so to speak.

Someone mentioned Mad Max earlier. You're going to have to walk a very fine line in order to pull off anything short of total societal collapse, and have it be believable. The "Dark Years" could very easily be decades, or even more than a century, long in well over 75% of the world. And even those areas that manage to either avoid it, or pull themselves back out of it fairly quickly, will see ginormous setbacks for many years to come.

I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir!

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Matthew K asserts...

Posted May 11, 2009
NukeHill: "long-term environmental issues arise from Israel’s nuclear attacks "

True that. It's big thing to let off so many nukes inside Earth's atmosphere - Nuclear winter? (Or is that dated?)

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Guy ducks in to say...

Posted May 11, 2009
Back in the 1970s ethnic minorities in the UK were usually described as "black" and "Asian". Nowadays the "Asian" category has disappeared to be replaced by subdivisions such as "Muslim", "Hindu", "Bangladashi" etc. Remember that many of these communities that were lumped together under the "Asian" heading do not like each other very much. The Indian/Hindu community has done very well economically by and large, while the Muslims tend to be at the bottom of the heap. Also, if the Blair government had decided to throw out the Muslims he would have made a great show of NOT throwing out the Hindus (just to show what a non-racist kind of chap he was). Given the very tense relations between Hindu and Muslim there would very likely have been many Hindus who would have supported the expulsion of the Muslims and the Government would have used this to their advantage.

Furthermore, with continental Europe going up in flames, the vast majority of British people, including Londoners, would be demanding heavily increase security measures to control rioting Mulims and others and to prevent the country being overwhelmed by refugees from the continent. The average Brit would have seen the BBC reports of the chaos, death and destruction in Paris and would support any kind of draconian security measures in order to avoid the same thing happening in Britain.

With America gone and most of Europe in turmoil, the British government would be looking to secure food resources from the Irish Republic, which has a traditional large agricultural surplus. The Irish, enjoying better relations with the UK since the Good Friday Agreement, and worried about their own security and keen to be able to continue to export, would most likely decide that it was in their interests to forge closer links with Britain.

The British would also look to Norway for oil and gas. The Norwegians were already supplying a good deal of both to the UK via teh already existing shared pipelines under the North Sea and it is likely they would be prepared to cooperate. They would want to have a closer relationship with the UK as Britain seems to be the major European power least affected by the massive post-wave instability. Norway has a small population and tiny armed forces. They would be grateful to be able to increase their security links with the British and to continue to be able to export their oil and gas to a (relatively) secure market.

It would be a very tense and unpleasant few years for the UK and for London, with very high levels of unemployment, shortages of virtually everything, perhaps even outright hunger but I believe that, compared with most of the rest of Europe, Britain would do relatively well.

The Tories might be back in power but it seeems likely that they would be leading a national coalition government. I doubt that conditions would permit a full scale general election.

The Government would be heavily promoting symbols of unity such as the Queen. There would be great propaganda efforts made to mould public opinion with memories of 1940, the threat from overseas, us against the world etc. Given the lack of anything else to do with curfews etc, the public would be watching listening to the BBC/SKY etc in record numbers and this would give the government a great opportunity to manage the public mood.

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Matthew K reckons...

Posted May 11, 2009
What Guy said. Especially a sort of north European band of Ireland, UK and Norway, and the other Scandos would come with Norway, they usually stick together. I could see much of the EU needing to do that sort of thing, but Holland and Germany would be right there I'd bet.

People would be poorer, but they'd would still have cupboards full of clothes left over from the good times shoes would wear out faster. Much more people trudging around in worn out trainers.

I think the air would smell of coal and wood smoke much more, and there would be the fast food smells of diesel engines burning used chip fat and veg oil to top up the Norwegian oil. Vehicles would be noisier too as people get rid of exhaust systems with gas guzzling catalysts and fit simpler straight through pipes.

A shortage of antiperspirant (and household heating oil?) and lots more walking and cycling means people would be smellier, a combination of smelly feet and sweaty pits.

To get into houses you would have to negotiate an obstacle course of handle bars, pedals and panniers; streets, alleys and hallways would be cluttered with bikes locked to railings etc. Bike theft would be a more serious crime and much more common. The streets would be full of the rattlings and squeaks of semi maintained bikes.

Markets would be popular as people looked to make money by selling off stuff and to pick up cheap food: Most towns have a market place, Tesco would be a duller place though - maybe they'd start some sort of farmer's market themselves to keep up?

People would routinely carry a bag or day pack just in case they find a bargain.

Diesel vans and utility vehicles would become sought after to haul firewood and salvage, people would hoard piles of scrap and lumber under tarps in their back gardens.

Scrap merchants would be rich.

Rubbish would really be rubbish, nobody will chuck something that can be reused or sold.

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Guy mutters...

Posted May 11, 2009
Just to add to what I said before (and to what Matt has just written, which seems spot on)the Government has had for the last 60 years a special (and constantly updated) protection plan in place for key buildings in London and elsewhere that would be activated in the event of serious civil disorder. This would involve a proverbial "ring of steel" being put around Westminster and Whitehall for a start. Images of the Palace of Westminster gutted by fire might be good disaster movie fare but in reality the Palace and the Government ministries nearby would remain secure no matter what might happen elsewhere. Similar measure would certainly be in place at other key buildings such as the British Museum, the National Gallery, Kensington Palace etc.

Also worth adding that the Sikh community is historically even more hostile to the Muslims than the Hindus. They are a warrior people and highly likely to stand alongside the UK government in any action against Muslims.

It is also highly likely that the post-Wave emergency would strongly reinforce the Union between England Scotland and Wales. In a time of serious trouble, the Scots and Welsh would be much more interested in the greater security that would certainly come from being part of a United Kingdom rather than risking their safety by playing games with deveolution/independence.

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mckinneytexas has opinions thus...

Posted May 12, 2009
Would it be possible that there is an element within the Muslim community that is disrespecting the UK's firearms ban and that, when the shit hits the fan, there is a well-armed, unhappy group of non-assimiliationists?

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Matthew K mumbles...

Posted May 13, 2009
Yes, Mckinney. Seeing as most of the Pakistanis in the UK are Pathan (? Pashto) and of the same tribe as the Taliban. But home-made bombs seem to be more what our security services are worried about. But add in Jihadi training camps visits when back home plus East European guns...

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Steve G. has opinions thus...

Posted May 14, 2009
Vermin - Nobody writes about how rats, mice, chipmunks or squirrels and their parasites might adapt to a new regime.

Espcially, I'd think that flies, fleas and ticks would increase with decreased living standards and decreased or absent cleanliness standards. Add to that the large collection of new food for them - dead, dying and unattended sick people - this would become a real plague.

Then the diseases they bear would reappear and rampage through the weakened population.

Those things would bring about quite a few changes in behavior.

P.S., love your books - write more soon!

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John Birmingham would have you know...

Posted May 14, 2009
Ah,Steve G. you missed it but we did do a long thread on this after the book came out. It helped me with the sequel. Glad you enjoyed the scribblin'.

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NBlob swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 14, 2009
Is it time for some Dickensian squallor, work houses & Plague?

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Matthew K puts forth...

Posted May 14, 2009
I reckon the govt. would invest in a lot of Keynesian style projects to keep people busy and kick start the economy, so there'd be a lot of people employed as rat catchers, street sweepers, neighbourhood wardens etc etc.

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Guy is gonna tell you...

Posted May 14, 2009
It's worth remembering that during the Second World War when german submarine attacks led to severe rationing of food and drink in Britain, the population was never more healthy. It's much better for you to eat vegetables and take lots of exercise digging your allotments and training with the Home Guard than it is to sit on your backside at home eating hamburgers and chocolate and swigging back the booze (although the burgers are likely to taste better than the swedes and turnips!) One beneficial by-product of the post-Wave upheaval for the Brtish would probably be that most people would become slimmer and fitter thanks to a better, if less satisfying, diet and more exercise.

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Matthew K would have you know...

Posted May 14, 2009
For sure, and Britain has quite a lot of good farmland. Back to the old fashioned all pervading smell of boiled cabbage.

So, 21st C austerity Britain: smellier, thinner, shabbier.

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Guy would have you know...

Posted May 14, 2009
Dig for Victory!

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lotocoti ducks in to say...

Posted May 15, 2009
Rather than putting the Tories in power, just run with Labour (which fits the timeline... the next election would have been 2005) an ousted Blair and a psychotic Brown with their (Labour's) appalling Civil Contingencies Act (1984 was the template)in force.

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2004/en/ukpgaen_20040036_en_1

Which would pretty much crush the population, DDR style.

That opens the door to a lot of civil insurrection and especially capital flight.

Julianne's career as a Capital Runner would really take off then.

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