Cheeseburger Gothic

Driving Playlist

Posted June 10, 2013 into Music by John Birmingham

Threw this one out to Twitter. This is what they threw back. It skews towards accelerated listening.


Lloyd, I'm Ready To Be Heartbroken
Camera Obscura - Let's Get Out Of This Country

This Is The Day
The The - Soul Mining


Jesus Built My Hotrod
Ministry - Jesus Built My Hotrod


Cars (Remix) Fear Factory - The Best of Fear Factory

Foreign Language (Flight Facilities Extended Mix)
Flight Facilities - Foreign Language Remixes


Better Get A Lawyer
The Cruel Sea - Three Legged Dog


Goofy's Concern
Butthole Surfers - Independent Worm Saloon


The Pretender
Foo Fighters - The Pretender


All These Things That I've Done
The Killers - Hot Fuss (int'l)


Satan Is My Motor
Cake - Prolonging the Magic


Pictures of Home (1997 Remix)
Deep Purple - Machine Head - 25th Anniversary Edition


Go With The Flow
Queens Of The Stone Age - Songs For The Deaf (UK Version)


Born To Run
Bruce Springsteen - Greatest Hits


Apartment Story
The National - Boxer


Birds
Anouk - Birds


Army Of Me
Björk - Post


Aloha Steve & Dano
The Casanovas - Heartbeat


Hey Friend
Jeff The Brotherhood - We Are The Champions


Heavy Days
Jeff The Brotherhood - Heavy Days

Whiskey In The Jar (Full Length Version)
Thin Lizzy - Whiskey In The Jar

Territorial Pissings
Nirvana - Nevermind


Smells Like Teen Spirit
Nirvana - Nevermind


The Songs They Played As I Drove Away
Tim Rogers & The Twin Set - What Rhymes With Girls And Cars


Needle
Born Ruffians - Needle - Single


Jazz Devil
Barry Adamson - The Murky World Of Barry Adamson


The King Of Rock'n'Roll
Daniel Lioneye - The King Of Rock 'n' Roll


Voodoo Cadillac
Southern Culture on the Skids - Southern Culture on the Skids Live at Maxwell's 06/28/2004


Ocean Size
Jane's Addiction - Nothing's Shocking

26 Responses to ‘Driving Playlist’

BigWillieStyle asserts...

Posted June 10, 2013

"Insane in the Brain" - Cypress Hill

"Axegrinder" - Hoodoo Gurus

"Save a Horse, Ride a Cowboy" - Big & Rich

"Heart's Done Time" - Aerosmith

"The Girl Tried to Kill Me" - Ice T

"Tangled Up In Blue" - Sir Bob

Rhino mumbles...

Posted June 11, 2013

That list rocks. All it needs is some "Like a Hurricane" - Neil Young

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tqft would have you know...

Posted June 10, 2013

You not like my taste in music. Evil evil man. Maybe just different.

John Birmingham puts forth...

Posted June 10, 2013

Looking for stuff I didnt have

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Bangar mutters...

Posted June 10, 2013

Bat Out Of Hell,just reminding.

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BigWillieStyle mutters...

Posted June 10, 2013

Forgot one;

"The Boy With the Arab Strap" - Belle & Sebastian

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jcdmusing would have you know...

Posted June 10, 2013

How can you have missed the greatest driving song of all time :-

Radar Love by The Dutch band Golden Earring.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AD5fX4sveo

Rhino mutters...

Posted June 11, 2013

And "Twilight Zone" by Golden Earring as well.

Love that song.

Birmo - that could be Caitlyn's theme song.

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Microbe74 mumbles...

Posted June 10, 2013

bit late coming into it but here goes anyway

Time to Switch to Whiskey - The Corb Lund Band

Shark Fin Blues - The Drones

Cadence to Arms - Dropkick Murphys

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pitpat is gonna tell you...

Posted June 11, 2013

Battle of Evermore -Led Zep. On the lonely flooded Hay Plain at night going to Byron Bay.

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Ali has opinions thus...

Posted June 11, 2013

I think they forgot Cadillac and a Mustang by Dan Sultan.

Especially if you're still in an On The Road kinda mind.

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Rob swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted June 11, 2013

Thought I would join in, basically this is what I listen to when driving.

Electric Six- Jimmy Carter

Diana Anaid- Perfect Family

DC3- The Gathering

Lamb of God- requiem

Cosmo Jarvis - Maxine

Minsitry - The last Sucker

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insomniac is gonna tell you...

Posted June 11, 2013

did you post this on behalf of the chauffeur?

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Bunyip swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted June 11, 2013

Yeah, but. It's one thing to listen to something with a high BPM whilst playing dodgems with the nutters on the way out of Smelburg/Sidni/Brisvegas, and another whilst you cruise along something long and relaxed like the New England or Newell Highways (in NSW) (cannot be fcuked thinking of Queensland analogues)

Mind you, to enter in the spirit of this thread my suggestions for transurban freeway defensive driving:

Your Pretty Face is Going to Hell The Stooges

Search and Destroy Iggy and the Stooges

Descent Into the Maelstrom Radio Birdman

When out west of the Divide, I'm probably listening to Arvo Part or some other wanky thinky crap.

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Rhino puts forth...

Posted June 11, 2013

"Changes of Latitude, Changes of Attitude" - Jimmy Buffett

"Paradise by the Dashboard Lights" - Meatloaf

"Catholic Girls" - Frank Zappa

"Friends in Low Places" - Garth Brooks

"Alice's Restaurant" - Arlo Guthrie

"Wasn't That a Party" - The Irish Rovers

"I'm Shipping Up to Boston" - Dropkick Murphys

"Scotland the Brave"

Ippy Percival is gonna tell you...

Posted June 11, 2013

I used to do a cover of Alice's Restaurant. I had most of the monologue word for word, but would usually modify it heavily as is the way of such things (and also make it a bit shorter). Keeping that fingerpicking riff going under a monologue is a fantastic exercise no matter what you end up bleating on about anyhow.

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Bondiboy66 puts forth...

Posted June 11, 2013

AAaah many classic driving tunes there. Some more in a fast and thrashy vein:

455SD - Radio Birdman

War of the Gods - Amon Amarth

Master of Puppets - originally Metallica, but go for the version by Trivium

Progenies of Great Apocalypse - Dimmu Borgir

Nocturnal Fear - Celtic Frost

Well they are some of MY favourites anyway.

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yankeedog reckons...

Posted June 11, 2013

'Ramblin' Man'-Allman Brothers

'Red Barchetta'-Rush

'Take It Easy'-Eagles (c'mon, that's gotta be on the list for someone other than me. Well, maybe not)

'Ghost Riders In The Sky'-preferably, Johnny Cash's version

I'll second Rhino's 'Changes In Latitudes, Changes In Attitudes'

'Twilight Zone'-Golden Earring

'Mississippi Mud'-Hank Williams III (Ol' Hank's grandson is usually on the YD playlist somewhere)

'Middle of the Road'-Pretenders

'Marche Slave'-Tchaikovskiy. Perfect for cranking up when pulled up next to someone's thumping bass.

And, of course, 'I've Been Everywhere'-again, prefer Cash's version, but will cheerfully play the original: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjm3zSCjNoU

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Ippy Percival is gonna tell you...

Posted June 11, 2013

I like a driving list that has Jesus Built my Hotrod in it. From The Cruel Sea, I'd probably put Down Below in the driving list, just because that surf guitar tells me a story on a big open highway. Too much Nirvana, I'd just include Lithium. The obvious Triffids song is way too cheesy, and I'm afraid I would probably find Born to Run fits in the same category, though some other Springsteen might do it for me. Not that I think it's by any shot a bad song.

I'd rather Gary Numan doing Cars, and Queen doing We are the Champions, but might not trouble with the latter (but maybe Don't stop me now). And actually I'd go Are Friends Electric ahead of Cars anyway.

Oh and my driving list has Pepper and TV Star from the Butthole Surfers' Electric Larryland album. Just because the first one sounds great in a car up loud and the second one is... well, kinda sweet and mentions a cute doggie.

There's something by Andy Prieboy that I keep thinking would be a great driving song, but I don't think it's ever made it to my car. From the album with the Wendy song he did with the woman from Concrete Blonde. Forget the name of the track. But anyway...

If I'm feeling energetic and silly I like Verdi's Requiem up loud. And Holst's Jupiter. A nice big recording of Bach's B minor Mass is very welcome in my car, too, and I might even not sing the bass part along.

Most of the time if I want music I want soothing and often enough ABC Classic FM does it for me. But what the hey...

Surtac puts forth...

Posted June 13, 2013

Ippy, that was Tomorrow Wendy with Johnette Napolitano. Great song, btw.

Hmmn. While I'm here, I have to point out that Porcupine Tree have some great driving music that I love to play loud when travelling solo. My faves would include these tracks:

Arriving Somewhere But Not Here

Lazarus

Voyage 34

Russia On Ice

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Churba reckons...

Posted June 11, 2013

A few I've been grooving to in The Mighty Van lately:

The Rolling stones - Doom and Gloom
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPFGWVKXxm0

Butterfingers - FIGJAM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyzrKPcLpBw

Pretty much anything by the Black Keys, but right now in Particular, Lonely Boy and Gold on the Ceiling
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yCIDkFI7ew
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_426RiwST8

WAX - Rosana
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0aRb4rAq0I

Gary Clark Jr - Don't owe you a thing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFIWstcaoLc

A bunch of Mashups, like this:
AC/DC vs Queen (Plus Robert Plant and friends) - Rock in Black
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LrL5zSlW_

The Beatles vs LCD Soundsystem - The Brits are playing at my house
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPtWh5XjiH0

PSY vs Ray Parker Jr - Gagnam Busters
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82LCKBdjywQ

Queen vs The Beatles - Fat Bottom Girls Come Together
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMGo7H5-a0A

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Rob puts forth...

Posted June 12, 2013

Radar Love you say? Ministry you say? Doors..roadhouse blues. Rolling Stones.

You pretty much only need two CDs and thats Minsitry and Co-conspirators covers albums. Which has everything from Doors, to louis armstrong and Amy Winehouse http://youtu.be/gmUKK_AGRNI

Churba ducks in to say...

Posted June 12, 2013

If you like Amy Winehouse even a little, you should check out Clairy Brown and the Bangin' Rackettes.

Rob is gonna tell you...

Posted June 13, 2013

When TISM's Damian Cowell mentioned Clairy Browne in an interview. I thought it was some sort of post modern joke. I randomly googled the name and ended up buying the CD from bandcamp about 3 minutes later. Totally brilliant.

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Music in space

Posted May 26, 2013 into Music by John Birmingham

Everyone should have seen Commander Chris Hadfield's cover of the Bowie classic Major Tom by now. If you haven't, shame on you. Here 'tis.

In the vid below, shot before he took off, he talks about about how important music can be to the astronauts, cosmonauts, whatevernauts up there. And I have to say it's something I never thought of. The latest Apple ad, featuring nothing more than people groovin to their phones' itunes libraries, does a great job of reminding us how important music can be to us as a species. And yet you almost never see it in SF.

It was important enough to the space agencies involved in the ISS to commission a bespoke guitar.

Somebody, Blarkon or Damien probably, will now interject with three examples of seminal space operas featuring the protagonists playlists as pivotal plot devices. But I don't recall any, and that's all that counts.

Watch the vid. It's fascinating, especially if you've seen Hadfield's Bowie act.

18 Responses to ‘Music in space’

yankeedog reckons...

Posted May 26, 2013

I did see the video, and Cmdr. Hadfield does a fine job.

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BobGrrl mumbles...

Posted May 26, 2013

I dunno about protagonist playlists from space operas, but the music in the Battlestar Galactica remake became an important part of the plot by the end of the show. (In addition to it being easily the best original soundtrack from any TV show I've ever heard.)

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NicF ducks in to say...

Posted May 26, 2013

Speaking of BSG, Bear McRearys version of All Along the Watchtower remains my favourite of all time.

But while trying to think of SF with music as a centrepiece I couldn't come up with anything except that great Futarama episode with Fry learning that silly instrument.

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Lobes would have you know...

Posted May 26, 2013
  1. Close encounters of the Third Kind
  2. The Fifth Element
  3. Cloud Atlas

You're Welcome

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JBtoo has opinions thus...

Posted May 26, 2013

Anne McCaffrey's Crystal Singer & Ship Who Sang books. Not exactly seminal, but SF all the same.

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Dylwah puts forth...

Posted May 26, 2013

William Gibson uses music s bit, there was the dub of the rasters in space in Neuromancer, and a punk band in one of the 'Bridge' books.

Arthur C. Clarke used toccata and fugue in d minor in one of his short stories set on mars. Can't remember the name tho.

I think my favorite music in a sci fi flick is "Hardware" with PiL and Iggy as the radio dj. (Sorry mr Williams. )

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Mark Duffett is gonna tell you...

Posted May 26, 2013

It's not in the film, but there is a passage in Arthur C Clarke's novel of 2001: A Space Odyssey where David Bowman 'more alone than any man in human history' after disabling HAL, tries to take solace in a range of operatic pieces including Dies Irae before eventually (from memory) settling on Bach.

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w from brisbane asserts...

Posted May 26, 2013

Dave Lister's favourite band was Rastabilly Skank. Rimmer was very familiar with their work, but greatly disliked them.

In the novel, there was some more detail about Rastabilly Skank. Amongst other songs, reference is made to Rastabilly Skank's popular love ballad,
"Hey baby, don't be ovulating tonight".

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Dino not to be confused with ducks in to say...

Posted May 26, 2013

JB

That's a nice sounding geetar!

He can sing as well and I noticed a Dsus4 and G chord in there so I petition he do a version of Ziggy Stardust and the Spiders from Mars.

Of course they'll have to lift up a Les Paul, Fender Twin Reverb Amp(original vibra) and a Jimi Hendrix wah wah pedal.

John Birmingham swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 26, 2013

From the YouTube evidence, he did quite a few covers up there.

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damian swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 26, 2013

I'm sure there must have been a reference to music at some point in Keith Laumer's Retief! stories. Can't quite remember... I liked some of the musical themes in Banks' stuff , the latest one as well as Look to Windward - but I suppose that is different to the sort of thing you mean.

Does seem to be relatively little explored, and I'd have thought it's more about how much extra imagination it takes and the near certainty of going wrong.

Anthony swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 27, 2013

The one that makes a ukelele sound good? The Antagonistic Undecagonstring that needs four arms to play...

There's also the baddies in Eric Flints Empire novels. Course of Empire and Crucible of Empire. The Ekhat are a rather unpleasant xenophobic lot of musical nasties who are so bad that any sort of rythmic sound terrifies the various species who have come into contact with them.

John Ringo's Legacy of the Aldenata series also contains a significant playlist. Someone's put together a (not definitive) YouTube playlist for the seriest at http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLBE19F761F632BEF3

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DNABeast is gonna tell you...

Posted May 27, 2013

I'm a much bigger fan of ISS - Is Someone Singing where Cmdr. Hadfield sings along with Ed Robinson and the Barenaked Ladies.

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JG mutters...

Posted May 27, 2013

Commander H did a brilliant cover. He's a pretty good singer for an astronaut. A couple of flat notes at the start, but he gave a credible performance and hit all the high notes. I wonder if he'll go on tour now.

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Bondiboy66 mumbles...

Posted May 27, 2013

Star Trek, the original series - Spock hangs out with the Space Hippies and plays a....somethingorother that is sort of guitar-like.

damian mumbles...

Posted May 27, 2013

Sure, Bondi. But that really doesn't explain this.

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There's not nearly enough music for young people; about semicolons

Posted May 23, 2013 into Music by John Birmingham

26 Responses to ‘There's not nearly enough music for young people; about semicolons’

Barnesm mutters...

Posted May 23, 2013

still not going to save the semi colon. This might save it

Dick has opinions thus...

Posted May 23, 2013

Jebus, Barnesy, haven't you got somewhere you should be?

Paul_Nicholas_Boylan mumbles...

Posted May 23, 2013

Hey, fuck you. Barnsey is exactly where he needs to be, and doing what needs to be done.

Barnesm would have you know...

Posted May 23, 2013

Thanks Prof B couldn't have said it better myself

Dick mutters...

Posted May 23, 2013

That's a tad harsh, Professor. I was just observing that Mr Barnes was the first to post on the last two entries within minutes of them being posted. No need to get all gung ho on my ass (as you yanks would say).

Barnesm ducks in to say...

Posted May 23, 2013

Quick respnse due to the mighty but soon to be decommissioned google reader.

Paul_Nicholas_Boylan ducks in to say...

Posted May 23, 2013

I do apologize, Dick, for my response to your comment. It was, indeed a tad harsh and, in retrospect, I must confess to a bit of embarassment for having overreacted to your comment. However, I am forced by a highly advanced sense of propriety to mention that, although I am a "yank" by birth, I have never once used the term "gung ho" in conjunction with reference to another person's posterior. Never once. Perhaps there are United States citizens who would say something like that, but I've never met one. Well, perhaps one, but beyond that, no one else. Maybe two. At most. But that certainly isn't the basis for proving a stereotype, is it? That's like saying that all gay men are fastidious just becasue you've been to one gay wedding. Or it is like saying all Mexicans are thrifty because you saw one saving string for later use. Generalizatons based on limited data inputs can be inaccurate.

w from brisbane swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 23, 2013

Thanks PNB. That is very clear.
I try to look at U.S. cultural sources for stereotypical word usage.

"I'm gonna git Medieval on your ass."

This has puzzled me. I am assuming this refers to recording pages of the illustrated bible on a blank flesh canvas?

Paul_Nicholas_Boylan reckons...

Posted May 24, 2013

Yes. Exactly. Nothing is more terrifying than vellum.

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w from brisbane ducks in to say...

Posted May 23, 2013

This is outrageous! Not since Alanis Morrisette's song, 'Ironic', has a lyrical examination of an aspect of English expression got it so wrong.

A semi-colon should join 2 independent clauses.

My whole team coming clean; shampoo.
Did I do that; urkel.
etc

These examples are independent clauses preceding a list. The colon would be the correct choice.

Trowzers mumbles...

Posted May 23, 2013

That's why they all got F's at the end of the song!

Paul_Nicholas_Boylan is gonna tell you...

Posted May 23, 2013

You didn't wait for the ending, did you?

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stacey asserts...

Posted May 23, 2013

w from Brisbane, did you watch the whole thing?

w from brisbane mumbles...

Posted May 23, 2013

No. Keeping to the conventions of internet outrage, I started typing before I got to the end. I will force myself to watch the whole piece.
This better not be a trick. .

Dino not to be confused with has opinions thus...

Posted May 23, 2013

I think; w didn't.

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w from brisbane would have you know...

Posted May 23, 2013

OK, point taken, though why didn't they entitle the song:
'A common example of incorrect semicolon use repeated ad nauseum, y'all'?

w from brisbane asserts...

Posted May 23, 2013

This doesn't excuse my shame, but to perhaps explain:-

I categorise most rap music with bagpipe music; great for about 50 seconds.

DNABeast ducks in to say...

Posted May 23, 2013

Speaking of not following rules in communication, feel free to respond to the comment rather than starting a new one ;-)

w from brisbane is gonna tell you...

Posted May 23, 2013

OK, sure. Let's all make fun of stupid.

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Trowzers mumbles...

Posted May 23, 2013

This is the best grammar nazi rage troll song ever; the Youtube comments are going to be an amazing shambles. Correction: they already are a shambles and are bleeding out into this blog too!

Also, I kinda like the song regardless of subject.

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Paul_Nicholas_Boylan puts forth...

Posted May 23, 2013

I distinctly remember discoverying the power of the semicolon; it happened in a remedial english class I took after high school.

insomniac would have you know...

Posted May 23, 2013

they should have included a module on spelling

Paul_Nicholas_Boylan swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 23, 2013

Damn it, am I going to have to check my spelling now, too? I knew this sort of thing would happen the moment the site was nominated as a contender in a contest recognizing excellence. Fuck.

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insomniac puts forth...

Posted May 23, 2013

in the circumstances, shouldn't that be "...excellence; fuck."

she_jedi has opinions thus...

Posted May 23, 2013

Well played insomniac!

Paul_Nicholas_Boylan asserts...

Posted May 24, 2013

I stand by my use of "Fuck" as independent of the proceeding sentence/clause. I rely upon artistic license for justification.

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"The resurgence in hook-laden guitar-pop has led us back to Rumours."

Posted April 10, 2013 into Music by John Birmingham

What the...?

A couple of weeks ago I quietly, almost shamefully added a new album to my Rdio collection. Well, an old one really. Fleetwod Mac's Rumours, which I onced owned on genuine black vinyl, and then CD, and played obsessively through my teenaged years.

It seemed such a naff, retrograde thing to do, slipping it into my carefully curated playlist, which is looking so much better since I kicked Anna off my account and into her own. What would people think if I signed in via Facebook and saw that I wasn't thrashing the Hoodies, or The Lacs or polishing my inusufferable hipper-than-thouness with the borrowed cred of somebody cooler's playlist. What if they saw I'd just listened to three Stevie Nick's songs in a row. Totally not by accident.

Fuck, Lobes might even unfollow me on the twitterz.

Ah, but then I read that the young people are loving the old school Mac, and that while I was dozing into late middle age, Rumours in particular had snuck back into the affections of a whole generation. The one after Y.

What. The. Fuck.

How? How?

Because apparently it was the soundtrack of their childhood, and it makes them feel good. Like cold milk and warm choc chip cookies at the end of a winter's day. Flavorwire, was so intrigued it lent it's popcultural heft to James Lachno's think piece about the band's unexpectedly renewed popularity.

"... there’s more to it than that: right now the hippest bands around all want to sound like Fleetwood Mac. What started in the late-2000s with US folk-rock revivalists such as Fleet Foxes and Bon Iver has built up a head of steam. Last year saw the release of fine albums from trendy US acts such as Best Coast and Sharon Von Etten that bore the unmistakable influence of Fleetwood Mac’s classic Seventies period, as did work from blockbuster pop artists Mumford and Sons and Taylor Swift. Barely a cigarette paper, meanwhile, can separate the sound of Stevie Nicks’s songs from Rumours and those of the BBC's feted Sound Of 2013 poll winners, Haim."

Even as an aging Nicks fan, I think that par overstates the case, but at least I can now breathe easier when I plate up the album on Rdio.

38 Responses to ‘"The resurgence in hook-laden guitar-pop has led us back to Rumours."’

Bunyip swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted April 10, 2013

<Turns Stooges up to 12>

Bondiboy66 mumbles...

Posted April 10, 2013

Fuck YES

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insomniac is gonna tell you...

Posted April 10, 2013

i can relate to the old vinyl making a comeback. we have a vinyl collection we want to get rid of, and the most valuable ones are some rubbish by crosby stills nash and young, kiss alive, and abba's ring ring. hardly newish stuff. we have rumours too but it ain't my soundtrack

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Quokka mutters...

Posted April 10, 2013

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrRIelP8xq0

Ooh yes, big fan of Stevie Nicks way back when I were a lass & still have some of her clothes in my wardrobe. Added a blonde wig to the get up & went to a girlfriend's Fancy Dress 80s 40th BD, clutching a plastic bag full of white powder & half empty bottle of vodka.

Every woman there immediately fell about laughing & shouted '1986 Wild Heart Tour at Boondall. yeah I remember that.'

Have you heard this one with Ella Hooper, sounding very much like The Mac?

It is awesome.

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Quokka reckons...

Posted April 10, 2013

Awesome, W.

I still have that gown in my closet, complete with lace and batwing sleeves.

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NBlob puts forth...

Posted April 10, 2013

Baahahah I can't wait 'till Ashar sees this.

matter - antimatter

gravity - antigravity

cred - anticred

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John Birmingham asserts...

Posted April 10, 2013

Funny thing i, because I couldnt be arsed reading thru the derp at the last two Bluntys, I have NFI who this Ashar is.

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NBlob would have you know...

Posted April 10, 2013

Farcebook says otherwise.

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She'll would have you know...

Posted April 10, 2013

"But time makes you bolder, even children get older..."

Mmm. Ain't it the truth. Sigh.

Shell would have you know...

Posted April 10, 2013

Oh dear. Yes, that was me. And no, she won't. Thought it best to clear that up. Ha!

w from brisbane mumbles...

Posted April 10, 2013

Yep, Shell. And the next line.

"But time makes you bolder
Children get older
I'm getting older too"

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Quokka would have you know...

Posted April 10, 2013

Glee did an entire episode on Rumours.

That's how the little folk learned about it.

Kristen Chenoweth & Matthew Morrisson's version of 'Dreams' comes up on the top 25 most played of my Sonos list. Wow that woman can sing.

While we are in the confessional I have some Dean Martin lurking in the Sonos too.

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Steve would have you know...

Posted April 10, 2013

Never be ashamed of your musical heritage, John. We all know what a classic album of its time Rumours was. Nothing wrong with harking back to past perfections.

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damian reckons...

Posted April 10, 2013

Oooh, you admitted to owning a Fleetwood Mac album. In public!

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melbo swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted April 10, 2013

"Rumours" is a great album. And who gives a shit what anyone else thinks. If your "dag quotient" goes up with some people then that says more about them than you.


That's my take on it anyway. Listen and enjoy.

damian puts forth...

Posted April 11, 2013

You mean I can freely admit to my lasting interes in the music of Gram Parsons, Emmylou Harris and Guy Clarke wihout fear or favour?

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Bondiboy66 swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted April 10, 2013

I like the first Peter Green version of Fleetwood Mac. The later incarnation...not so much.

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Mark Duffett mumbles...

Posted April 10, 2013

Wear it with pride. This GenXer glories in Simon & Garfunkel and Cat Stevens on the playlist.

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sibeen asserts...

Posted April 10, 2013

Contrary to popular opinion, I am not an old fart. I remain hip. I only listen to one music station and that is JJJ.

In this years JJJ top 100, the song that got voted in, by the sprogs, at number two, was a song by an Icelandic band called "Of Monsters & Men". Absolutely fantastic guitar pop / folk, and the whole album gets a big thumbs up.

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Spanner has opinions thus...

Posted April 10, 2013

I have blamed the good Dr Y for my getting drunk and sitting up with a set of headphones on and my ipod burning up my wifi downloading the tunes of my childhood and adolescence because booze, nostalgia, a credit card and an internet connection are all Dr Yobbo’s fault.

Be it the Mac (Oh god I loved the double album Tusk) or the guitar driven rock of my misspent yoof its all wonderful and I love the red wine and the nostalgia.

Quokka is gonna tell you...

Posted April 11, 2013

The red wine no longer loves me.

Bloody sulphites.

Dave W has opinions thus...

Posted April 11, 2013

Just Tusk. Only Tusk. Not the album, the song. It'd probably make my top 50 tracks for its complete strangeness and the hook. And it includes a marching band, at least in the vid.

Pretty much everything else by the Mac is just a bit too poppy for me.

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jord mutters...

Posted April 11, 2013

Thank Glee for using the album during one of their eps (it may have been an entire Mac ep).

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TC reckons...

Posted April 11, 2013

Fleetwood Mac have always been easy to like. Most of my music is heavy, so it's important to have balance in life.

I have noticed the resurgence in what I call Folk Twang though. And I quite like it. So does my 3 year old son - there's a song that goes "hey! ho!" and he think it's awesome. That and Little Talks (probably also because of the "hey!")... I wonder if this is shaping his musical future...? Better play more Tool.

Bondiboy66 swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted April 11, 2013

My teenage sons are all Metal fans - and my 7 year old wanted to hear 'Master of Puppets' while I cooked dinner the other night...

jord asserts...

Posted April 11, 2013

Hey! Ho! - Luminaires

TC reckons...

Posted April 12, 2013

Master of Puppets - class. Battery is probably my favourite M song... perhaps I'd better dust off the record. Actually... I don't have a record player.

Luminaires, huh? Better look them up!

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mojo79 mumbles...

Posted April 11, 2013
Dave Grohls Sound City doco and the Sound City Players album that both feature Mick and Stevie may have something to do with it.

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JG reckons...

Posted April 11, 2013

I listened to Rumours while visiting friends at a farmhouse in Wagga Wagga back in the 80s. The guys seemed to play it a lot. Also, a Canberra radio station used to play it all the time. I got sick of listening to it.

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Brad asserts...

Posted April 12, 2013

JB,

"Roscoe" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDL9bXlwbM4) by Midlake is very reminiscent of Fleetwood Mac. If you like that, check out the rest of that album, "The Trials of Van Occupanther" (great from start to finish). Definitely the best of their lot.

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TC mumbles...

Posted April 12, 2013

Ah, I like that! Should I credit it to you or have you borrowed it from someone else?

Dino not to be confused with ducks in to say...

Posted April 13, 2013

TC,

Pretty sure I read it in 1981.

I would like to take credit for it now.

Has the copyright expired?

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Bedes would have you know...

Posted April 12, 2013

Best review ever of any album ever was about Rumours in National Lampoon when it came out.

Although I don't necessarily entirely agree with author, the entire review continues to haunt me with it simplicity:

FleetwoodMac: Rumours "Buy a knife. Cut the fuck out of it."

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rob asserts...

Posted April 29, 2013

John Birmingham. you would probably like this movie and CD http://buy.soundcitymovie.com/ its kinda groovy and says alot about the Rock music making process, and the digital revoultion.

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RexEverything ducks in to say...

Posted April 30, 2013

It may well be the same reason I like Dean Martin, Frank Sinatra and Oscar Peterson cocktail piano - they bring back sweet memories of childhood... lying upstairs (with brothers and cousins) listening to the party going on downstairs.

John Birmingham swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted April 30, 2013

I have quite a collection of Rat Pack platters. I like to put 'em on when the need for a martini takes me. Although, I don't bother tuxing up nowadays.

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Swarming to judgment.

Posted July 20, 2012 into Music by John Birmingham

Props to Barry Divola for beating me to Lana Del Rey. I'd been meaning to do some thinkin' out loud on Del Rey's eerily compelling mash up of the last 60 years worth of musical sound salad but Barry got in first today.

Totes worth a read, here.

Before Barry however there was the Hipster Hivemind which, having been embarrassed by a few moments initial enthusiasm for Del Rey's high-spec re-engineering of the Rebecca Black fame engine decided to throw the switch from lip curling snark to attack dog savagery. Barry can fill you in on that. All of it I missed, cos I'm just not hip enough.

I found Del Rey's self titled album on the new release page at Rdio.com and hit it up because, well, she looked hot. (An unforgivable crime against the integrity of all pop culture, apparently). A couple of moments listening to opening track, however, and I was sold. Literally. I decided to buy the album rather than just streaming it.

Choice in music, like choice in humor, is subjective. A lot of <del>haters</del> critics hated LDR. I loved it, and many, many plays later, still love it. Lana Del Rey is a creation in the same way that Dr Dre, Gaga, the Sex Pistols, AC/DC, Elvis, all of them were created, or perhaps just curated by their labels, managers, audience and so on. Lizzy Grant, the singer who inhabits the form of Del Rey, has crafted a character from an early Easton Ellis novel; a trust fund ingenue who takes her nihilism with champagne and pearls rather than the warm coke and greasy chicken-n-chips that sustains the inhabitants of, say, a Hilltop Hoods track. She is the culturally incorrect voice of the one percent. Or perhaps the one percent's girlfriend.

Staging her act on the wrong side of that American class divide was... er, brave. I suspect it directly fed into the backlash that began before her official fifteen minutes.

Anyway, that's my reading of the Del Rey character. The music, I just dig on, which is why I was kinda taken aback when I realised how controversial that entirely subjective choice was. First inkling came when a music critic friend pushed back when I tweeted a line about the Del Rey album being cool. (The crit, Amanda writes great gig reviews, informed and genuine. She is so genuinely contemptuous of LDR that I wanted her to write a coupla hundred words here in counterpoint, but couldn't raise her in time.)

After dueling with Amanda I decided to check the Discovr Music app to see what sort of Del Rey links it thru back at me. For similar artists it gave up Lykke Li, Florence and the Machine, Foster the People and James Blake. So far so meh. The blog entries about her however where a revelation. Uniformly toxic. And angry. And very very determined that whole world should know they would be forever Marked as of the Beast if they didn't immediately grab a pitchfork and a burning branch to help destroy this monster once and for all.

This chick had upset some entitled fuckin' hipsters, lemme tell you.

The near uniformity was vaguely familiar, but it took a minute until I recognised the tone. The same, ominous hum of an approaching swarm I'd heard a hundred times before. At the Instrument. Except rather than coming in to astroturf the comment thread with, say climate change denial, this swarm was inbound on Lana Del Rey, her breathy voice and collagen lips. Barry Divola again:

...even before she had released her debut album, Grant had already been through the deified-then-crucified story arc. A big reason for this was the fact that her rise was a direct result of that YouTube video. She who is born by the internet dies by the internet. Even the media started referring to her as a meme rather than an artist. In The New York Times, Jon Caramanica opened his story with the line ''It's already difficult to remember Lana Del Rey, but let's try'', as if her career were already over and he was writing about her as a pop-cultural artefact.

The artefact has proved infuriatingly resilient. As Barry points out she was meant to come down to Oz in February and play at the Oxford Art Factory, a comparatively tiny venue in Sydney. Five hundred punters, tops.

That tour was postponed due to the explosion of interest in her. Five months later, she's not only doing two sold-out nights at the Enmore Theatre (total audience 4000) but she's also on the bill at Splendour.

I wont be at either. But I would've liked to see how Lizzy Grant pulls off the Lana Del Rey character in front of a live audience.

43 Responses to ‘Swarming to judgment.’

NBlob puts forth...

Posted July 20, 2012
"warm coke and greasy chicken-n-chips that sustains the inhabitants of, say, a Hilltop Hoods track"

May have been a intemperate turn of phrase JB, but I'd be a little cautious about flinging mud the HtH's way. 2 of the boys are > / = Healthy life focussed than you.

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jennicki mumbles...

Posted July 20, 2012
I'm still new to LDR. But that "Blue Jeans" song haunts me and it's been a constant on my iPod lately.

She reminds me of Tori Amos. And I don't care what people say about Tori either, I like her stuff as well. There's something about a sexy singer who's not afraid to get ugly.

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Luke would have you know...

Posted July 20, 2012
I thought you did wirte a paragraph about her on the Instrument once. I seem to recall the "WTF is all the hate about?". A bunch of wannabe special snowflakes freakin out cause they liked someone who it turns out wasn't ideologically someone who they should have liked. Becasue apparently that's got something to do with whether they think the music is good or not.

Nothing says wanker quite so well as people who change their support for a band just because they become main stream hits. I went to school with a bloke who couldn't shut up about how great the Smashing Pumkins were (you kow, cause it was somthing special about their undergroundness that made him, as a fan, feel differentiated him from every other punter out there. After all his taste in music was superior to anyone who liked top 40 music). Anyway the Pumkins made it big and he turned on them like an exwife in a bad divorce. Overnight he hated all their music with a pashion, even all those ablums he had from before they were big.

He thought people who liked top 40 were all just sheep who let external forces dictate what music they should like. Ironic eh?

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Jodi swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted July 20, 2012
I steered clear of the mass hatred on this one, but I do think she was prematurely pushed into the spotlight before her music was really ready for the level of scrutiny it's been receiving. This album would pass muster for a local lady's first effort but at such an explosive international scale, it really needed more work.

Similarly, I agree that the Letterman performance was terrible, but that doesn't mean she's terrible always and forever - it just means she had an off night; she's a young woman under a lot of sudden and unexpected pressure.

I'll be catching her at Splendour to see if she carries herself better a year into her crazy rollercoaster ride than she did then because hey, yeah, she's hot and she had some good songs and I'm curious, which should be enough to support a musician shouldn't it?

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John Birmingham ducks in to say...

Posted July 20, 2012
I'm not hatin' on the Hoodies, NBob. They're on even higher rotation at my place than Del Rey. Read the line again. It's about the inhabitants of a Hilltop song. They write/sing about the same people/class/whatevs as chisel once did. The suburban exiles, the working poor, the trolley pushers and take away chicken eaters. In fact there's a line about KFC in one of their tracks I could dig up if I didnt have to get back to my deadline. Later, maybe

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John Birmingham is gonna tell you...

Posted July 20, 2012
Yeah, Luke, you're right. I remember now.

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Therbs would have you know...

Posted July 20, 2012
I'll get in early on this one. I only liked her early stuff, you know when we used to see her in those small indie venues and no-one knew her, but we did. Then she became mainstream and commercially successful and we hates her we does.

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BrianC ducks in to say...

Posted July 20, 2012
I hope she sounds betterer than the caterwauling in that youtube clip JB. That to be honest sounds like a bad pub band in the back room of the local croat club.

she is a looker though. Would totally hold her hand.

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jennicki ducks in to say...

Posted July 20, 2012
I think you mean the infamous Saturday Night Live performance, not Letterman, Jodi.

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John swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted July 20, 2012
Who?

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AusMossy ducks in to say...

Posted July 20, 2012
I bought the album as soon as I heard Video Games. Some of the tracks are instantly forgettable, but there's tracks on there I still love. Only after the purchase did I start seeing the hate going her way and especially after the Sarurday Night Live appearance. Some time later I saw the episode of SNL where she did two songs... and I still didn't get the hate. They might not have been fantastic performances, but they were no worse than most of the live stuff on SNL. Better than some of the mimed performances... Ashlee Simpson I'm looking at you.

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NBlob swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted July 20, 2012
Yeah, but no.

There is an "Art" factor that is too easily glossed over as wankery and it is profoundly difficult to pick through the stuck together tissues of High Octane Wankery and find the kernals of truth.

But there is a difference between an article produced for sale and a creation of the artistic process. I can hear the smart arses shouting "yeah the Art is unsale-able." Again yeah, but no.

I think it was Birmo's hero Mr King that said an "artist writes because they have to, whether anyone will ever read it or not." The same goes for musicians, who will fiddle & faddle in their back room, irespective of a record deal or the prospect of one.

Sure, all artists want their work to be admired, enjoyed and valued and in the world we live in the ultimate in valued is a RRP and lotsa sales. But for an Artist this is secondary.

A made for sale piece is different, will always be different, can't help but be different.

To suggest otherwise is to say that a Henry Moore is the same as a Lucky Strike ad. From the moment of inception it isn't so much a creative process as an excercise in making sales. No disrespect, a sale is a good thing in and of itself. Sales make the world go 'round, pay the bills & feeds the kids. But sales and Art are different things. They may overlap like some Venn Diagram, but they are different things.

To the topic @ hand.

If Lizzy Grant had / has been doing the LDR thing in tiny clubs for years, because that's what She felt was good and right, then it'd be an entirely different prospect to Smock, Apron & Watermelon creating LDR and looking to cast a performer in that role.

I suspect some people choose to dislike what they would otherwise enjoy because they don't appreciate that some producer can so expertly predict what it is that they will like. Yet in any other field, sandwich making, architecture or whatever this is the ultimate goal. Hence the Wankery.

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Barnesm puts forth...

Posted July 20, 2012
"This chick had upset some entitled fuckin’ hipsters, lemme tell you" that's a ringing endorsement for me, off to itunes.

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Monster Yuppy is gonna tell you...

Posted July 20, 2012
I don't mind listening to new hipster stuff from time to time, but I gotta say that on spotify, Led Zep & Talking Heads are still on my high rotation list.

It may be a tad misogynistic of me but I really don't like solo female singers.

I cannot think of a single one I have in my collection.

Lana fits that bill for me.

I will stick to Muddy Waters & Jimmy Page.

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John Birmingham is gonna tell you...

Posted July 20, 2012
Aren't you supposed to sign off with something about damn kids getting off your lawn.

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Lobes swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted July 20, 2012
She played at a festival I went to a couple of weeks ago. Unfortunately her set clashed with Amon Tobin ISAM on another stage so I didn't get to see her although I really would have liked to. Some of my friends saw her and said she was ok, nothing special but not terrible.

Remember hipsters only hate things they used to like.

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Therbs reckons...

Posted July 20, 2012
She's playing at Oxford Art Factory? That again will piss off a shit load of hipsters.

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Blarkon mutters...

Posted July 20, 2012
This idea that artists only create in pursuit of expressing their soul and that someone who creates for a buck is somehow tainted is hipster and nerd solipsism. Sometimes artists create to pay the rent and to put food on the table. This does not detract from the value of that creation.

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BruceGaryNigelson asserts...

Posted July 20, 2012
Subjective - dead right. Music is diverse and noone could possibly have the same tastes. I think that a true music lover (or appreciater if you want) will understand that regardless of genre/hype/coolness/hipness/perceived lameness etc, will understand the joy that the other music lover is deriving from that piece of music. Always amuses me to see the haters once a band, in a lot of instances, finally win some very hardearned success ($$ in the bank) and being able to give up their day jobs to pursue it further. I'm just bloody happy that they can fund what they do so that I can derive some further pleasure out of what they do, instead of imploding into abject poverty. On a side note, always wanted to kick those dickheads in the head who used to sit down on the floor (wtf?) at gigs at the Troubadour. Too cool for school.

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Therbs asserts...

Posted July 20, 2012
Blarkon - agreed. Like that Dickens bloke publishing in a rag in serial form. Totally sold out as an artist. Or artists doing commission work, or doing entries for the Archibald.

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Luke mutters...

Posted July 20, 2012
Blarkon, that's exactly right. By JBs own confession, one of his books was nothing more than a money spinner. But its one that I like.

NBob, I very much doubt that all those talk over a backing track autotuned knuckle dragging rappers wouldn't says they are all artists only in it for the sake of itself (..well that and the b*tches). But at the end of the day people who put together commercial jingles still have and display more talent in their work despite it purpose.

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Cintamani mutters...

Posted July 20, 2012
I'm with you JB - love the album esp Born to Die.

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damian asserts...

Posted July 20, 2012
Grub first, then ethics.

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Sekret Sekret is gonna tell you...

Posted July 20, 2012
Love Lana Del Ray. Love her groovy voice. She could have been made in a test tube in Richard Wilkins' shed for all I care.

N o apologies or evaluations or justifications. She's just groovy.

I know the jury's out on how developed she is as a musician. Meh.

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Sekret Sekret has opinions thus...

Posted July 20, 2012
Often, under -developed art is fucking great. Ted Nugent when he was 16--great. The Beach Boys, Great. I remember Silver Chair's hit song when they were, what? 16? Tomorrow. Brilliant bit of under developed talent. That's what I mean.

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Barnesm mutters...

Posted July 20, 2012
Afraid I have to disagree with you Nbob at least until you can provide some standard to evaluate the worth of art other than "I know what I like, and what I like thrashes". In your argument

" A made for sale piece is different, will always be different, can’t help but be different.

To suggest otherwise is to say that a Henry Moore is the same as a Lucky Strike ad"

The first sentence is demonstrably true but only if you define the difference as which is made for sale. The second sentence doesn't necessarily follow from the first. I could believe that Henry Moore and Lucky Strike are both pieces of shit, or sublime and transcendent works of breathtaking beauty but until you give me the yard stick to compare and it isn't "one was done for pay" then I am not convinced that there is a difference.

Some of the so called 'hack' writing/performing/art done by the author is possibly better (for a given measure of worth) than earnest work produced by an artist struggling in a garrett and vice versa.

Or were you taking the piss, I admit I am unsure?

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damian asserts...

Posted July 20, 2012
Barnes: to this I'd suggest reading a bunch of stuff by Jonathan Swift, Alexander Pope, and then working your way forwards. Walter Benjamin is just one of many 20th century commentators to take in along the way, but a must-read on this subject. Kant is worth looking at too.

In short: this isn't an argument to start from scratch, any more than evolutionary biology is a subject where you can make a reasonable interjection without reading at least a bit first. Cf Hayek's rather spectacularly, embarrassingly wrong exploration of the subject.

Blarkon: I largely agree, but your "only"s, "sometimes"s and other qualifiers are too sloppy, verging on contorted framing in places.

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Sekret Sekret ducks in to say...

Posted July 20, 2012
Nbob, I hadn't seen your comment but the immediate response I felt was : Even if that's true, even if Lana Del Ray's intention is one thing, it doesn't measn the effect is predictable. Noone can account for 'something' about an artist, no matter what external factors are at play, manipulating us to see it a certain way.

For example, I knew none of the above about LDR before this post, nada, zilch about her. Interesting that without the benefit of knowledge I was free to respond wihtout most of my prejudices. I can't bear Guy Ritchie or Shannon Knoll. and some tiems I wonder if that isn't because I know their origins, or that they fit into a particualr pattern which I have come to reject because of "who" I am, or who you , we all ,are. Oh to listen without cultural references to tell us we like or dislike a thing.

There's a great book on thsi subject , writtne by an indie Toronto music critic, Carl Wilson called "Let's talk about love: journey to the end of taste" a book about his examination of why he hates Celine Dion. Turns out, it's all about "you".

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NBlob is gonna tell you...

Posted July 20, 2012
Forgive me I was distracted.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/agriculture-minister-john-mcveigh-under-presure-to-reveal-cuts-to-department/story-e6freon6-1226430631406

@ Blarkon. Tainted ? I didn't say better or worse I said different. Commercial imperative, self censorship.

@ Luke, Riffs, beats & lyrics. It's good if you open your brain to it.

@ Barnesm. I got nothin. You are right. To qualify an intangible is

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beeso has opinions thus...

Posted July 20, 2012
I had a similar experience with Lily Allen. Post music venues I had dropped out of pop music and I must have hit the Js and heard her song. Loved the almost sarcastic lyrics wrapped in bubblegum pop. Didn't realize that it was seriously uncool in my crew. Didn't care. Fun fun stuff.

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Darth Greybeard ducks in to say...

Posted July 20, 2012
Music's never been the same since the Moody Blues and the Small Faces. Now all you kids git offa my lawn.

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damian has opinions thus...

Posted July 20, 2012
Bob - I get what you were trying to say. Intention doesn't really come into it. Some works clearly "have something" that others don't. Oftentimes this lines up with whether the stuff is popular, and often in a perverse order. What's done to put food on the table isn't necessarily, even usually bad, just more often than the other way around.

But don't talk to me about not running with the cool kids. Meh.

To take GB's point: you mean people have still been selling music since the turn of the century? Who'da thunk?

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Barnesm asserts...

Posted July 20, 2012
"To qualify an intangible is" yodaesque, which made me chuckle NBob. But I am enjoying the discussion.

And thanks for the suggested reading Perfectly, Terribly Sane Damian I didn't think I had said anything ground breaking, and am sure others have said it before, certainly better than I could. I just don't think that I need to cover the course materials before I ask the question. I believe the Socratic method predates Swift and Pope.

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Sekret Sekret mutters...

Posted July 20, 2012
Gbeard, we's settin fire to your lorn.

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damian reckons...

Posted July 20, 2012
Oh, is that what you were doing? I don't think Bob was taking the piss, to answer the only question I spotted there.

On a different but related note, I think it is definitely possible to have an intelligent discussion about things that can't be measured or otherwise quantified, but still have value. One that even has useful outcomes. Some will insist that value can always be quantified, and I will respectfully disagree on that point. Others will, as you appear to do, insist that anything that can't be measured can't exist, and I'll disagree just as respectfully.

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MickH has opinions thus...

Posted July 20, 2012
Wow!

Where did that vid from Ira Glass come from?

I felt like he was talking to me...

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pi reckons...

Posted July 20, 2012
Needs more trance. And lazerz and shit.

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Barnesm would have you know...

Posted July 20, 2012
No Perfectly, Terribly Sane Damian I think things that can't be measured can exist,.

Just before I discuss a piece of work it is helpful to see if who I want to discuss it with uses a similar frame reference to evaluate as I do. If the person I am talking with has as a basis that art produced to earn money as the primary motivation must be of lesser worth than one produced purely as art then, while that is a valid distinction, it is not one I can subscribe to and therefore no reason to try and discuss the worth of different works because my frame of reference is too different from theirs. I am not saying one criteria is any better than the other, simply mine is different and because its mine obviously the correct one.

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NBlob mutters...

Posted July 20, 2012
Subjectivity precludes graduation and calibration. Quality depends on the competence of the practitioner. Art is something else, something that transcends quality.

You know, the Lizard may be right, but in a 'round about way. Professional competance is a precondition to producing Art.

It's late, I'm philosophising half cut. Last time we played this game I ended up concluding that Today Tonight was Art.

'night.

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Barnesm ducks in to say...

Posted July 20, 2012
good advice, Nbob TTFN

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Lobes would have you know...

Posted July 21, 2012
(Cool i get to paraphrase the comment i made in last weeks stephen king thread. Don't get up yet brain.)

You would think art has evaded being a victim of subjectivity but even that is somewhat changing with the stuff like the pieces coming out of Warhols Factory and Damien Hirsts assistant created Spot Paintings challenging the concept of what exactly it is that makes art good.

But art is a one off and in many cases is judged by its price tag. A bad Damien Hirst is still a collectors piece that people will pay good money for. Whereas a bad album by a manufactured star (say Stephanie McIntosh) isnt going to have many defenders and may not make much money at all. Both are made for money though.

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damian asserts...

Posted July 21, 2012
Barnes, I think we're actually saying more or less the same thing just from a different perspective. By referring to Pope and Swift, I'm trying to share my frame of reference.

I think there are two different things NBob said, respectively 1) that commercial art, or art made for the purpose of making money is different to art made for love, or to art made with the intention of making good art; and 2) that some art has a value above other things that seems to us to be intrinsic to it even while it may have something to do with our own cultural context and our awareness of the artifact's context. I think these are not necessarily related to each other in all cases. But I do think that Apocalypse Now has something that Weekend at Bernie's III doesn't. Other than lots of explodey goodness, of course.

"Ars gratia artis" ("art for art's sake") is the motto of one of the largest Hollywood studio companies, an irony we might reflect upon.

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jp ducks in to say...

Posted July 22, 2012
She's good, though I think nerves often get the better of her because she hasn't mastered her 'act' yet.

I was at this taping when last in London, dragged along by publishing PR peeps in what I thought would be a terrible bore (eg can't we instead be drinking good scotch someplace with her royal hotness or the like???) but was blown away by her. (that's what she said)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jP7mdcm1-6w

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