Cheeseburger Gothic

Meanwhile, back in alternate 1956

Posted December 6, 2016 into Books by John Birmingham

I like this Northrop Grumman drone for WW 3.1. It sounds a lot like the original Big Eye series from Weapons of Choice.

The flying-wing design incorporates twin counter-rotating propellers mounted on Tern's nose. The propellers would lift the aircraft, move it into position for horizontal flight, and then operate again vertically upon landing.

The shift to drone technology for ISR mission reflects the Navy's strategy of allowing surface ships to conduct surveillance and targeting missions without the aid of land- or carrier-based patrol aircraft. Tern also is intended to support Marine expeditionary missions using long-range, high-endurance unmanned aircraft.

The Navy envisions deploying Tern on Arleigh Burke-class destroyers, which have several helicopter pads but no runways. Researchers also are hoping that the program can save money by allowing ships to host the aircraft without any significant modifications.

9 Responses to ‘Meanwhile, back in alternate 1956’

Oldy reckons...

Posted December 6, 2016
Oh man, I'm so busting for this. Axis of Time (and those brilliant silhouette covers) was my gateway drug to life as a JB junkie. I've never seen Prince Harry the same way again

John Birmingham puts forth...

Posted December 6, 2016
I can't wait to unveil the new cover for the Hammer anthology. It's gonna rock.

Don Bagert swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted December 8, 2016
Which color this time? :)

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Vovchara is gonna tell you...

Posted December 7, 2016
well, you have had done something right, after abysmal failure to predict Clinton's presidency :P

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Murphy_of_Missouri mumbles...

Posted December 7, 2016
Too bad we can't get some model builders to sit down with some models of original ships circa the 1950s and do some kitbashing with 1990 and later ship models.


And I'd love to see how the Hawaii Class semi-stealth carrier turned out over the ten years since Final Impact.

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ronS would have you know...

Posted December 8, 2016
Life imitating art - again

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Jeats is gonna tell you...

Posted December 9, 2016
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/6299/darpas-revolutionary-fixed-wing-vtol-naval-drone-gets-the-video-treatment

Some videos of it.

This on the other hand reminds e more of a bug eye shape

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avro_Canada_VZ-9_Avrocar

This was built in 1974 for the USAF.

Jeats reckons...

Posted December 9, 2016
Sorry make that 1958-59 for the USAF

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Don Bagert would have you know...

Posted December 11, 2016
So Rome was set in April and May of 1955 - does this mean a bit of time jump to get into the thick of WW3 in 1956? :)

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Harry is off to Audible

Posted November 22, 2016 into Books by John Birmingham

Just signed a deal to give Audible the rights to do the entire Stalin's Hammer series as an audio book next year.

I'm not sure how long it will take them to produce, but I'm very much looking forward to hearing the finished product.

I've been researching print-on-demand options for the collected series. It looks like I'll go with Amazon's CreateSpace in the US, but with IngramSpark everywhere else.

Doing print-on-demand is hella complicated compared to ebooks. And expensive. These things will retail at the same price as any trade published title. And I'll make less on them than I would on a much cheaper ebook. As soon as you start moving atoms around, the costs pile up.

But there are people who prefer print. I guess we'll see whether they're willing to pay for the preference. My guess is mostly not, but it's worth a look.

At the moment I anticipate an early to mid-December launch for A Girl in Time, and if I can ever get my head around the vagaries of IngramSpark, the hard copy should be available for Xmas too.

I'll release this title everywhere. I experimented with Amazon exclusivity this year, and although it does confer some advantages, I don't think they compensate for the lost readers who just won't come at the Beast of Bezos. I seem to have more of them than usual. (Interesting and possibly related data point - over 60% of subscribers to my bookclub are on iOS).

Anyway, I'll let you know when I hear anything about a release date for the audiobooks.

12 Responses to ‘Harry is off to Audible’

DarrenBloomfield ducks in to say...

Posted November 22, 2016
I'm IoS and my preferred platform is ibooks. But I also procure via Amazon for my Kindle app and even Kobo on rare occasions. I'm slutty that way.

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WarDog is gonna tell you...

Posted November 22, 2016
"over 60% of subscribers to my bookclub are on iOS"

The zombie hordes are zeroing in on you John.
Oh, wait you're already one of them :-)

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Rob puts forth...

Posted November 22, 2016
After moving house I like my kindle even more then I did before. So many books to pack, store and cull.

insomniac has opinions thus...

Posted November 22, 2016
I have to move shortly and I have a stack of books to pack, probably to add to the collection of boxes of books unseen for 5 years. I can never bring myself to cull any books, except in extraordinary circumstances such as when I found out the author of a book I had bought had been sending dick pics to women who had registered their email address on his website.

Rob is gonna tell you...

Posted November 22, 2016
I didn't realise how prolific I had been with the painting until I stacked and packed the bigger works. They are now stacked in my new studio, I did have a chuck out of some of those too. Weird watching paintings hit the crusher at the tip.

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Rob is gonna tell you...

Posted November 22, 2016
After moving house I like my kindle even more then I did before. So many books to pack, store and cull.

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Therbs reckons...

Posted November 22, 2016
Kindle or iBooks works for me. Prolly use the Kindle more these days.
I was given a David Sedaris book a few months back and only yesterday finished my e-Book backlog so I could start on this thing made of paper and ink. It doesn't backlight nor does it have adjustable font and you need to physically mark where you've just finished reading.
Unbelievably primitive.

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KreepyKrawly mutters...

Posted November 22, 2016
Thakyou, Thakyou, Thakyou, Thakyou, Thakyou, Thakyou, so-on and so-forth... Do not like Bezos, prefer kobo... would have liked microsux to have kept the .lit format, but what do you expect from those numnuts.

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Sparty2 ducks in to say...

Posted November 22, 2016
Well this is timely-

"Harry- get your arse to Tokyo" for
Hirohito's Hammer: Tokyo
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-37928806

WarDog asserts...

Posted November 23, 2016
Oh dear, the cataclysm from Day of the Triffids has shown up as a toy.

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Peter in the bleachers is gonna tell you...

Posted November 22, 2016
Kindle app on iOS works every time. iBooks is ok but has less options. Can't wait for A Girl in Time.

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David Kennedy would have you know...

Posted January 10, 2017
As a trucker Audible is my friend. So thank God Stalin's Hammer is on the way. Print - in any form - is OK at home but I can load up the iphone with a 100GB of audio and I'm set for the week.

It would be nice to get the next instalment of Dave on audio and, while we're on the subject of wish lists, Here be Monsters shows a lot of promise; more please.

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Where has that dead man been?

Posted October 18, 2016 into Books by John Birmingham

I won't say his name, in the unlikely event that somebody here hasn't finished reading Paris yet. But everybody else will be aware that somebody is back.

This is something that I've been planning for a while. I killed him off when I was still finding my way through the trenches of novel writing, bombs bursting overhead, no idea where I was meant to be.

There have been other characters, killed in other books, whose loss might've seemed just as cruel and arbitrary, but I would disagree. With those deaths, I knew what I was doing, As much as it hurt, and as much as I missed the characters in later chapters and volumes.

Poor Fifi.

The apparent return of everybody's favourite palooka at the end of Paris, however, raises the question of what he's been up to for the last 10 or 12 years.

I know. Of course I know.

But I am curious to hear everybody else's guesswork.

Spoilers ahoy.

32 Responses to ‘Where has that dead man been?’

Sparty reckons...

Posted October 18, 2016
Its not original series XXX. he's come though from a parallel universe where Kolhammer guys have had more success at transition technology. Either way he and the the secret agent formally known as the Prince have to go on a secret mission TOGETHER!

John Birmingham swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted October 18, 2016
To fight crime.

WarDog has opinions thus...

Posted October 19, 2016
In capes

Thalesian mutters...

Posted October 19, 2016
With much onomatopoeia

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insomniac swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted October 18, 2016
I'd guess super deep black ops. Not there but always there. Enough to know that Jules and Harry were in deep doodoo, and in most instances in and out to save the day without the other participants even knowing they were there, except in this case because, well, you know.

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jl asserts...

Posted October 19, 2016
My bet is that Dan received a set of oral orders directing him to report to an undisclosed location. As we know, the plane he was supposed to be on crashed. Horrible fire, no identifiable remains.

Donovan takes him under his wing, Dan spends a while in training and hangs out with Ivanov tidying up some of the mess left behind by WW2. The now nameless and stateless Dan specializes in work that is deniable and kinetic, he takes care of the stuff that the alphabet-soup agencies won't touch.

Baathist revolt in Iraq? Dan sneaks into a room with a garrote. No man, no problem. Issues in Cuba? Dan stands ready with a bag of non-sequential hundreds and a silenced pistol. An ex-Nazi wants to regain some of his turf in a rebuilding Germany? Dan passes a portfolio of choice photos to a war-crimes tribunal. Nazi goes away.

Dan is a troubleshooter and an expediter, a hidden tool of the Western interest. He is accountable to few and traceable by none. Dan has gone so long without a name that he forgets who he really is at times. He sits at a souk in the Horn of Africa and contemplates the busy street scene- he is jealous of the busy, innocent crowd. He ponders their normal lives. They are oblivious to the shark in their midst.

Dan is nowhere and everywhere.

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Turlogh Dubh O'Brien mumbles...

Posted October 19, 2016
Plain and simple : he works for a top secret organization by the name of Echelon.

jl is gonna tell you...

Posted October 19, 2016
I feel the itch to revisit the Disappearance novels.

Turlogh Dubh O'Brien has opinions thus...

Posted October 21, 2016
Further proving my theory of a connection between the Disappearance and the Transition, Charlotte-Grace was adopted by Dr. Francois. Becomes a highly trained operative. Caitlyn Monroe, if I recall right, was also adopted. Draw your own conclusions.

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DaveC reckons...

Posted October 19, 2016
Not entirely sure where we're at on the technology continuum, but he definitely wasn't an Uber driver was he?

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Mario Gómez mutters...

Posted October 19, 2016
I imagine Dan as beeing the only contemporary operative in the quiet room, his death was staged to remove any accountability to the U.S. goverment for his actions. He has both, the mind set of a contemporary american and the backing of the economic, political and technological powerhouse that is the quiet room as his tools, and is presumably their go-to guy in the Middle East because of his minning backgroud and Civil Engineering degree (pre-transition, so basically worthless).

Surtac asserts...

Posted October 19, 2016
Yes, I tend to agree with this.

I also see him as a sort of mining canary for Kolhammer in dealing with 'temp society - "How far can I go? how quickly can I make cultural changes in pursuing my overall agenda? how much change would be going too far in this new world? What will the 'temp USA tolerate? How much can I get away with?"

Really looking forward to see how it plays out overall.

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Therbs swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted October 19, 2016
He didn't die in the plane crash. He was secretly whisked away to an experimental facility where, in a series of ground breaking surgical operations crossing the barrier between organic life and advanced technology he was given two bionic legs, a bionic arm and a bionic eye.

Bondiboy66 swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted October 19, 2016
I thought similar, but with an adamantium skeleton complete with spikes that pop out of his knuckles, a six pack and ludicrous side levers

insomniac mutters...

Posted October 19, 2016
and a Lasso of Truth, indestructible bracelets and a projectile tiara.

Lulu has opinions thus...

Posted October 19, 2016
Or two bionic arms & one bionic leg. He has been running around in circles ever since.

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w from brisbane is gonna tell you...

Posted October 19, 2016
He's been running a bar/brothel in Tijuana.

Thalesian mutters...

Posted October 19, 2016
Which is housed in the ruins of an old Mayan temple

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Aaron is gonna tell you...

Posted October 19, 2016
Tempting to make him a Bourne type but I see him more as a quiet room spook handler. A deep cover liaison type coordinating operations due to his ability to adjust to the transition. I think you could dol some cool stuff with him getting lost in the complex world of espionage (kind of like capt Americas struggle ) cause Dan was in the army but not a born killer.

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Murphy_of_Missouri puts forth...

Posted October 19, 2016
I'd like to imagine that he is simply an extremely competent espionage agent. He doesn't have super strength, nor nutty insane ninja skills. He isn't augmented Captain America style, nor is he running around with an insane duffel full of Bond gadgets.


Perhaps he is akin to the professional assassin in The Day of the Jackal, or even better, the workman style investigator Claude Lebel.


Much as I like explodey and gadgets, it'd be neat for once to see just a normal human being of slightly above average intelligence who knows their job very well.

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Murphy_of_Missouri reckons...

Posted October 19, 2016
Even better would be if he kept a safehouse at The Elms Hotel in Excelsior Springs, Missouri. It is his one untraceable way to keep the memory of his love for Julia alive without having any actual physical evidence on him.

John Birmingham would have you know...

Posted October 19, 2016
I can confirm that Dan has no nutty insane ninja skills. He's just good at his job. But what that job is...?

Oldy asserts...

Posted October 20, 2016
He's the original Blunt Instrument

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Joe mutters...

Posted October 19, 2016
Any takers for a counter quiet room group? Set up by FDR to make sure those those uptimers don't get..... uppity?

DaveC mumbles...

Posted October 19, 2016
There be much scope for conflict in that thare scenario...

Oldy swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted October 20, 2016
Yeah, s much as I love the other suggestions, this is the most interesting. FDR knows Dan's all inside-out with the uptimers, but he's 'one of us'. So he builds his own little Quiet Room.
Also steals a march on those arrogant uptimers who think they're so smart, with their fancy toys that other people built for them.

Turlogh Dubh O'Brien has opinions thus...

Posted October 21, 2016
Or Eisenhower - he was no fan of the military-industrial complex as stated before.


Or taking it a step further, what if it's someone within the Soviet regime who wants to remove Stalin but needs some help?

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Dirk reckons...

Posted October 19, 2016
I think it's kinda simple. Hammer would have been needing a trusted person to run a series of ultraviolet (even more secret then black) research programs. Black would have been know and trusted by all the relevant players from his role as a liason. So he would have been shacked up in a secret facility somewhere deep of grid. Dreamland maybe near Tonopah, somewhere near Monument Valley or Zion national park or perhaps somewhere in the Oz or Canadian outback. Think something with hills or mountains where you can bury/tunnel something to hide from satellites etc.

Peter in the bleachers asserts...

Posted October 20, 2016
I'm with Dirk. And on top of that he would be running the odd ultraviolet operations to ensure the relative safety of Hammer etc. the odd assassination or 'moving' a child to a safe location.

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Don Bagert mutters...

Posted October 20, 2016
The fact that Dan and Julia were divorced at the time of his supposed death made it much easier for Dan to go along with whatever plans the Quiet Room had for him.

Has Dan - like Julia - found a serious relationship with someone else? I'm leaning towards no, since a Dan-Julia-Harry triangle is enticing enough.

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Rhino ducks in to say...

Posted October 21, 2016
Obviously he has been training...

Rhino, "Yo, Danny, Burger peeps are wondering where you've been and what you been doin."

Dan, "I told Birmo not to drop that I'm back yet. Fucking guy, always looking to get the rabble excited."

Rhino, "I don't care what he says. You ain't done here till I say you're done. Now get your ass back on those weights. What do we say?"

Dan, "Yeah, yeah, yeah ... You don't get these pettin' kitty cats, you fat fuck."

Rhino, "Language! Oh, and K called. Some shit about needing you in Siberia tomorrow."

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Don Bagert swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted October 21, 2016
So besides those parallel worlds i listed above, Einstein has suggested that the AoT uptimers' original timeline (last seen on January 15, 2021) still exists. Maybe in this one Manning Pope's experiment fizzled and had no effect.

Of course, originally that was supposed to be our timeline, but events that have occurred since 2004 have proven that wrong...

(BTW, I've been looking forward to the 1/15/21 "Transition Day" for sometime now. Hopefully you'll do something for the occasion :)

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Stalin's Hammer: Paris. The Spoiler thread.

Posted October 12, 2016 into Books by John Birmingham

I'm guessing that most people will have their copy by now, and that most of you will have read it. It should be safe to open the sluice gates on the spoilers. We can start with a general discussion below, but I'll add specific topics as people suggest them, or they occur to me.

Before we start, I'd like to thank the Beta readers again. They are a large part of the reason you get such a polished product for an independently published book. The do get early access to the story, but what they read is raw copy, not the highly polished article everyone else receives.

Thanks as well to everybody who has taken the time to drop a review. Early reviews are more important than early sales. They make a huge difference to the visibility of the title in the online stores, especially Amazon.

Paris was a fun book to write. So much fun that it restored my interest in the whole series. As soon I've finished the manuscript I'm currently working on (A Girl in Time) I'll be swinging right into World War 3.1, using all of the material generated in the two discussion threads we've had so far. I'm really looking forward to engaging with the story in a proper longform novel again.

I think one of the reasons I enjoyed Paris so much, and why a few readers have commented that it is the strongest title in the series, is because of the care I took in the planning stage. I spent a couple of weeks plotting this book out, and a couple of months before that doing some heavy research into story structure. It would all be a bit Inside Sports Ball to get into here, but I may take some time in the future to explain that process.

It was good to get back with old friends like Halabi and Kolhammer. And of course the only guilty pleasure more pleasurable and guilty than writing as The Dave, is writing in the sexy, sexy POV of Slim Jim Davidson.

We'll be seeing a lot more of them all.

For now, however, beware.

Spoilers follow.

56 Responses to ‘Stalin's Hammer: Paris. The Spoiler thread. ’

Don Bagert mutters...

Posted October 12, 2016
Oh man, I'm first! I totally called Dan Brown returning from the (supposedly) dead! So what if I got several other things wrong? LOL
Thanks for bringing AoT back, JB. I can't wait for WW3.1!!!!!!

insomniac mutters...

Posted October 12, 2016
Yeah, Dan coming back was the biggest wow moment for me. JB took the criticism of killing him off page and snuck him back in. It looks like the extra time planning paid off.
I started reading Go Set a Watchman by Harper Lee and she essentially does the same thing with Jem. He dies off page in that book which was written first, but is a character you're familiar with because of TKAM, written later, so it gave me the shits.

Murphy_of_Missouri mutters...

Posted October 13, 2016
Is that any good? TKAM is one of my favorites.

insomniac is gonna tell you...

Posted October 13, 2016
I read the first 100 pages. It didn't hold my attention. I never finished.

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insomniac ducks in to say...

Posted October 12, 2016
and Dan Brown can stay dead. It's Dan Black.

Turlogh Dubh O'Brien would have you know...

Posted October 12, 2016
Not Dan Brown...I liked The DaVinci Code ;-)

John Birmingham asserts...

Posted October 13, 2016
I dunno. I'm pretty keen on killing off Dan Brown.

insomniac is gonna tell you...

Posted October 13, 2016
When are we now? Mid to late 1950s? You could imagine a set of circumstances in WW3.0 that meant a whole cohort of writers, say those born in the early 60s, might now never be born, and as such we will never be subjected to their rambling musings.

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Turlogh Dubh O'Brien would have you know...

Posted October 12, 2016
As shocking as it was to see Dan Black come back (it rhymes!), it was more shocking that Slim Jim was the means through which the Allies struck back. I want to know what the missed target was, and my guess is Stalin's bunker.

So good to have everyone back, Halabi, Kohlhammer, Davidson, but my heart as a reader goes to Pavel Ivanov. JB makes him into a hero of Dostoevskian proportions. The guy has to be the only uptime Russian left in the new universe. He has no one to relate to, not even the White Russian wife of his landlord. There is not much chance he will see his homeland free from Stalinist rule in his lifetime, probably some status quo. Yet he fights on, inch by inch, day by day. True, others have lost family in the uptime like Kohlhammer but this guy lost a country, a nation, a sense of belonging, reduced to an off the charts asset, plausible deniability.

Speaking of new universes, I like that Einstein said there is an infinite number of universes resulting from the Transition...which I am still convinced had something to do with the Disappearance :-)

So just two books in WW 3.1? I was hoping for a tetralogy.

JB, will you still do crowdfunding for them? I'd gladly cut into my retirement fund to get immortalized within the pages - or at least redshirted.

To steal a phrase, we'll always have Paris.

John Birmingham ducks in to say...

Posted October 12, 2016
Two books next year. After that, I'll count my pile of gold doubloons and decide.

Natters ducks in to say...

Posted October 18, 2016
I'm hoping the missed target six was the GoldenEye satellite, left intact so baby Pierce Brosnan could grow up (wrongly) thinking he might still be allowed to play Bond.

Natters would have you know...

Posted October 18, 2016
I'm hoping the missed target six was the GoldenEye satellite, left intact so baby Pierce Brosnan could grow up (wrongly) thinking he might still be allowed to play Bond.

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Therbs ducks in to say...

Posted October 12, 2016
Mebbe Dan didn't come back. Mebbe it was an hallucination.
As for Slim Jim becoming a means of striking back you can thank Kolhammer for that. He didn't have his Roomy, O'Brien running Jim's investments for nothing. Be interesting to see how many supposedly partially built death stars he has which are really fully functional (and without annoying exhaust ports for nasty Skywalkers to exploit). For a character with SJ's street smarts, he's been well played by The Hammer.
I enjoyed the character development of Charlotte-Gracie. How she developed her sneaking skills and added others to them. I'm just wondering about how a new generation of characters will arise in the new book. The key ones will need similar backgrounding. I'm also wondering what happened to Ian Fleming. I can imagine a throw away line about the Sovs topping him.

John Birmingham asserts...

Posted October 13, 2016
The next ten thing is an interesting question. I really like the way Steve Stirling hands off from one generation of characters to the next in his Change series. But I got a way to go before I catch up with that.

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WarDog is gonna tell you...

Posted October 12, 2016
It's a shame that the timeline didn't allow Slim Jim to play double or nothing with a loud mouthed Australian newspaper tycoon instead of the Texas oil man. That would have been the cherry.

John Birmingham asserts...

Posted October 13, 2016
Yes. Yes it is.

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Don Bagert ducks in to say...

Posted October 12, 2016
I'm so embarrassed about saying "Dan Brown" instead of "Dan Black"!!!! I don't think it was a hallucination because she's seeing him aged about 15 years - not too far off of the actual time.

BTW, I liked that the Yankees and Red Sox are still apparently a big rivalry in the AoT world. (Hopefully they have more African-Americans by 1955 this time around though - in OTL they had one between them at this point.)

I'm surprised about the Ike-Hammer ticket winning - I can't remember anytime in the U.S. where both the President and VP were top military leaders.

Turlogh Dubh O'Brien asserts...

Posted October 13, 2016
I found it more than slightly ironic that Slim Jim's dual-use satellites strike back during the presidency of the man who warned the country about the dangers of the military-industrial complex...

John Birmingham mumbles...

Posted October 13, 2016
It's those little period details like the Yankees/RedSox thing that make these sorts of books a joy to write. World building, in the end, is just piling up mountains out of pebbles.

Don Bagert ducks in to say...

Posted October 14, 2016
I hope in the AoT Mickey Mantle avoided the drinking problems he had in our timeline. The Mick thought he would die at around 40 because that is when his father and grandfather did, and recklessly lived his life accordingly. However, those two died because of working in coal mines, which Mickey was spared of. Hopefully someone - like Slim Jim! - visited Mutt Mantle and the 10-year-old Mickey as he did Elvis, got Mutt out of the mines and made sure he got the medical treatment he needed in time, so he and his son both lived long and healthy lives. If Mickey had taken care of himself and not been so injury-prone because of it, he could have been the greatest baseball player ever.

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she_jedi reckons...

Posted October 12, 2016
Oh man oh man oh man Dan is back! He better be back, otherwise this is cruel and unnecessary teasing of your audience. I might even be persuaded to forgive you for killing Zach in The Dave if you bring Dan back, the original favourite, taken before his time.


I loved Paris, I think it's my favourite of the trilogy, mainly for that beautiful and disturbing prologue. Gracie-Charlotte is definitely a new favourite. She urgently needs a spin off series (I know I've said this before but it bears repeating).


Poor Harry looks like he's going to have competition in the Duffy stakes, and there's no worse competition than a ghost. It'll be fascinating to see that whole situation play out in the books to come. I loved Habibi and Kolhammer's return, and good 'ol Slim Jim was as ferociously despicable as ever. I have to applaud him owning half the world though.


The main thing this trilogy has done has set up a huge craving for a full length novel in the universe, and has even taken over my hankering for another novel in The Dave universe. You should totally use Einstein's theory of multiverses to link the Axis, Disappearance and Dave trilogies together. It would be epic.


I don't have a lot to contribute to spoilers beyond a semi coherent babble of joy about how much I enjoyed this mini trilogy and how much I'm looking forwarding to the new books. Stupid Amazon didn't post my first review of Paris so I had to do it again. And I had to write a whole new review because I couldn't remember what I wrote in the first one! Thank you for Paris JB, it was awesome :)

John Birmingham mutters...

Posted October 13, 2016
Yeah, I would very much like to do a Charlotte Grace stand alone novel. Maybe tell the story of how she got from Camp 5 to Port Said.
Dunno how well it would sell though, or even how I'd structure it.

Jevon swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted October 14, 2016
The only way I see it would be a as part of a greater narrative about how the 21sters try to manipulate the 20th's culture, and how unicorns like Charlotte would also be social agents as well as covert ones. It would be awkward though, with the action aspects clashing with the social ones. Perhaps a straight up biography like piece where Charlotte contemplates how the 'ghosts' changed her, and she shows her awareness of how she is different as we take her through 'spy school'. I can imagine some gems of scenes where she does not fit in with 20th century school settings.

Don Bagert puts forth...

Posted October 18, 2016
There are more universes connected - remember Pete Holder, Lady Julianne, Fifi and the rest of their crew of pirates appeared in a short story set in S.M. Stirling's Emberverse (which itself is directly connected with Stirling's Nantucketverse). Hey! This is how you could get Rhino Ross from one universe meeting Pete and Fifi (who both died before the pirates took on Rhino in the Disappearance Universe) in the other.

insomniac is gonna tell you...

Posted October 18, 2016
Would not the whole multiverse explode due to the Rhino^[(awesomeness)^2] factor?

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jl reckons...

Posted October 13, 2016
Personally, it was an honor to beta read Paris, what a fun experience. I have to agree with others here that Paris was the best of the three, although that is fitting with the end of a trilogy that does a remarkable job in setting up readers for a follow-on full length novel.

I had a lot of favorite scenes in this book. The beginning created an immediate emotional hold on the reader. "Everyone loves chocolate". Great stuff. Then there was the creepy menace of Skarov, Slim Jim's smiling bluff-calling, Halabi's polished grace, Kolhammer's blunt realism and Ivanov's fatalism.

I had many favorite scenes, but I think the best was when Kolhammer got frog-marched out of the hotel by the Secret Service. The tension was palpable, relentless, realistic. I felt I was there rushing out of the room and down the stairs, juggling with the agents and my cell phone. Solid writing, very, very good.

And then there was the twist with Dan Black. Need I say more? Holy crap, WW3.1 is going to be amazing.

John Birmingham puts forth...

Posted October 13, 2016
I think my favourite line belongs to Julia.

"I fucking hate children."

jl ducks in to say...

Posted October 13, 2016
I liked the counterpoint as well, it resonated. "Two children who'd had everything taken from them".

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jl mutters...

Posted October 13, 2016
I could be wrong, but did I hear somewhere that JB was going to bundle all the "Hammer" series and release them as a print-on-demand? That would be good. Love ebooks, but I have a special shelf at home for printed copies of my favorites. The "Hammer" trilogy can go on the shelf with books such as "The Forever War", "Dies the Fire" and "Old Man's War".

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Josh C. has opinions thus...

Posted October 13, 2016
I'm gonna put the brakes on for a minute about Dan Black, because I'm still not sure he's not a figment of Julia's near-death experience. If he *is* alive and leading his own team that materialized on the ship in Egypt... it'd almost have to be an all-'temp squad, no? Pretty much impossible for Julia to not know he survived if he's still plugged into uptimer circles.

I really liked the exploration of the feelings of loss and dislocation in this one, and I hope that continues into WW3.1. Charlotte's going to be an incredible character if we get to hang out with her in any context other than Angel Of Death, because she's damn near a unicorn, as Julia grokked pretty quickly -- too young to be an actual uptimer but thoroughly acculturated, yet ten-plus years older than the post-Transition generation (I don't know if they're the Baby Boom here).

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Stevo6069 would have you know...

Posted October 13, 2016
Dan Black back like the second coming. Only way this gets topped is if somehow Solo is ejected from the first stellar furnace that became of Star killer base. Hopefully played by Chris Pratt.

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Sparty2 reckons...

Posted October 13, 2016
Solo died? How about a spoiler alert!!
Paris was a great read- can't wait for more,
Hopefully with a young IVA Richards deciding not to
Follow his destiny but instead his name sake into
The SAS....everyone fitted into their book roles so
Naturally- but really want to see Halabi back in the CiC

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Murphy_of_Missouri mumbles...

Posted October 13, 2016
It is true, Sparty. Napoleon Solo did indeed die in The Man From Uncle.

John Birmingham puts forth...

Posted October 13, 2016
Murph...

Murphy_of_Missouri is gonna tell you...

Posted October 13, 2016
Oh yeah.


Spoiler alert.

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Surtac swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted October 13, 2016
So many good things to say about this book and what it does to my mind in terms of speculation of possibilities or connections for the next books. I have to re-read it before I'll get my brain to settle down and start to organise my thoughts in any sort of coherent manner.


In the meanwhile, a question that has been nagging me since SH: Rome:

Is the hammer itself based on the Project Thor / 'rods from God' stuff that Jerry Pournelle was involved in at Boeing in the late 1950s? I've always assumed it was, and have been looking for a sneaky mention of it somewhere.

John Birmingham swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted October 13, 2016
Yes, and I seem to recall it was Prof Boylan who put me onto it.

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Thalesian ducks in to say...

Posted October 13, 2016
I had thought the name Stalin's Hammer came from the nickname given to some of the Russian late-WW2 tanks - like the SU122 Tank Destroyer, etc... but that may be because I play WOT Blitz a bit too much.

I did like the Kinetic Energy Weapon as a choice of weapon for the Russians to build... Relatively cheap, and if your opponents have no real counter-strike, you would own the orbitals (and the planet).

Plus, I salute your choice to call it Stalin's Hammer, rather than Stalin's Rod

John Birmingham is gonna tell you...

Posted October 13, 2016
Dann. Wish I'd gone with Stalin's Rod now.

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Oldy would have you know...

Posted October 13, 2016
I loved the Stalin's Hammer novellas. Returning to this series again was like visiting old friends. I remember happening upon Dave and the Monsters in Dymocks last year and discovering that the first two Stalin's Hammer episodes were out. Man, busting with excitement.

Happened again earlier this week when I discovered Paris was out. I can't wait for 3.1.

One thing that's bugged me since I first picked up Weapons of Choice: you predicted Hillary Clinton's Presidency about twelve years beforehand. How, and can I get tonight's Powerball numbers?

Oldy puts forth...

Posted November 10, 2016
Yeah... don't worry about those lotto numbers mate, as it turns out...

Oldy puts forth...

Posted November 10, 2016
Yeah... don't worry about those lotto numbers mate, as it turns out...

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Therbs is gonna tell you...

Posted October 13, 2016
Off topic. While I was swapping books between devices "Brave Ones" popped up as a recommendation for a couple of bucks. Just starting it and interested in the historical context of the Indo leadership's hubris and sheer brutality. Could be interesting in 3.1 to see Indo leadership being brutal against commie insurgents, having learned such stuff from the Japanese.
Anyway, back to East Timor.

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DaveC reckons...

Posted October 16, 2016
Best bit for me - and admittedly - I am pretty slow, was that I never saw 3.1 coming until the final fifth of the book. And then it was like.... Damn! Why didn't I see that coming?
And somewhere down the line JB, do go Inside Sports Ball into story structure. Because the way these novellas fitted together, and escalated was bad-arse.

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ronS mutters...

Posted October 16, 2016
Loved it. I see the link with Disappearance a real possibility and who knows - if Dave needs explanation ever you can certainly blame the uptimers, But I also see an homage to Red Storm Rising if you want to nod to Tom C

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Rhino asserts...

Posted October 16, 2016
For everyone that is expecting a Red Tide Rising redux ... Fuck that.

It isn't the 80's in our world.

What we are going to have is a 1950's world with whatever uptime shit that the powers that be determine can be weaponized in the their now ... per JB's imagination.

Did some nerd boy at the pentagon with access to future literature get all exciited about the mtorcycles killing tanks like I did when readindint RTR? Don't know. But I hope so.

What I do expect is that it is going to be uglier than anyone could think. I expect there will be chemicals, biological, and, yes, nukes. Plus, there will be orbital, kinetic strikes from orbit. It will be horrific.war as we haven't known.

I know JB wants to wrap it up in 2 books ... but I expect that it will expand beyond that. It will take on a life of its own. Fuck, the chapters with Rhino's Banshees with Havok doing the atrocities will take most of the second book. Just the descriptions of Havok carving the Southern Cross into the skins of ambushed Soviet scouts will take pages upon pages. Can you imagine? The combined tactical genius of Rhino combined with the ferocity of Havock? The mind boggles.

Besides that, you have the minor characters that Birmo has brought along. Halabi, Kolhammer, the return of Dan. Whatever. Sure, I wanna see them. OK. I'm dying for that but I'm not going to admit it.


insomniac swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted October 17, 2016
Don't forget about the 4th book detailing the War Crimes Tribunal.

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ronS swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted October 17, 2016
RTR is a band or algal bloom

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MuddyRunner mumbles...

Posted October 17, 2016
Slim Jim remains my favourite reprobate, albeit a gold-plated one.

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Guy mutters...

Posted October 18, 2016
Thoroughly enjoyed Paris and the two predecessors. However, I think think the short formats prevent JB from exploring the temporal conflict between the 1950s and the 2020s as well as was possible in the previous full length novels.

Really looking for ward to the new novels which will give him the space to go to town. The beauty of the original AoT trilogy was in the detail. The mutual incomprehension of the time travellers and the 'temps' was hugely entertaining and there's room for so much more. That's a hint BTW - I hope we get more than a mere two new books. This is a fascinating universe and I want to see much more of it.

John Birmingham would have you know...

Posted October 18, 2016
You're right about the short format. So right that Paris will be the last time I do it, other than for giveaway volumes.

Therbs puts forth...

Posted October 18, 2016
Short format would be good for linking narrative arcs outside the main blocked out books or playing around with sideshows, e.g. Stalin's daughter getting caught up in some sort of shenanigans.

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Marzuk reckons...

Posted October 19, 2016
Loved it, while the whole short story format is a draw back as it feels the good chewy stuff from a story is missing. Glad to hear its back to big books after this. These 3 hammers have got me some pumped for ww3

Something tells me old crazy uncle stalin is still not happy that the glorious USSR didnt survive in the Uptime Timeline. Reckon ww3 is just going to be a scorched earth conflict to cover his true intent. Redoing the wormhole experiment to send soviets back with plans and data to ensure soviets power is absolute.

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MarkatVAVS would have you know...

Posted October 24, 2016
I [pit off reading Stalins Hammer : Cairo and Stalins Hammer; Paris until I reread the Axis of Time trilogy and Stalins Hammer:Rome again.

Best idea ever, and man I loved the whole thing. Cairo built on Rome, and then Paris built on that, and all I can say is WOW!!!!!!!!.

Looking fowrad to the next book.........

John Birmingham is gonna tell you...

Posted October 24, 2016
Cheers, guv.

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Brad mutters...

Posted November 5, 2016
Some questions I'd love to see answered with the new books—

So Alan Turing is in California based on previous threads. Grace Hopper is tenure-track at Vassar but hadn't applied for a commission before the Transition; what's she doing in 1955? How do the institutions in Massachusetts stay relevant when California seems to be getting a big leg up with the Zone?

On the Russian side, who is Leon Theremin working for now? (Or did Stalin decide to forget about the rehabilitation?)

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Respond to 'Stalin's Hammer: Paris. The Spoiler thread. '

The Hammer falls

Posted October 10, 2016 into Books by John Birmingham

Stalin's Hammer: Paris is out. Everyone who signed up to the bookclub early via the blog – which is most of you reading this – will have received your email on Friday, quietly letting you know the book was available at a much reduced price. That's called a soft launch. It allows me to reward those who most deserve rewarding, but also to stock up the ammo locker for the marketing blitzkrieg which is about to commence.

Thanks to everybody who's dropped a review so far. I've read them all and I am chuffed. I'll try and email a thank you note to everybody who identified themselves in their review. The reviews really are that important. They make the difference between being in this business and re-opening my old crystal meth lab.

I'll be emailing the rest of the list over the next couple of days, and they also get their own discount. By the end of the week the book will go up to its full price of US $2.99. I could make more money by just charging the full whack from day one, but I figure there has to be reciprocal benefit to collecting people's emails. The ability to talk directly to readers is such a huge benefit to me, it's only fair I give something back.

This was a lesson hard learned in the trench warfare of trade publishing where your say in the marketing and publicity ranges from zero to a little less than zero.

I'll open up a spoiler thread for Paris later this week, to give everyone time to read the book.

But right now, I got some books to sell. And so do you. Tweets, Facebook, Amazon reviews. They're all good.

25 Responses to ‘The Hammer falls’

pedrogb would have you know...

Posted October 10, 2016
Hi all
Thanks JB, thoroughly enjoyed it, thanks for the discount.
Just got to wait now.................

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WarDog would have you know...

Posted October 10, 2016
Thanks John. It really made my weekend.

All keyed up and drooling for the next paper based AoT novels when you drop them. I might be a tech head, but until high quality e-ink rolls out I still need a paper-back in my hands on the bus.

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Surtac asserts...

Posted October 10, 2016
It was a very pleasant surprise to get that email Friday night John. Many thanks for that. Appropriate review already posted.

John Birmingham puts forth...

Posted October 10, 2016
And I have read your appropriate review and been appropriately chuffed. Thanks Tac.

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Alister ducks in to say...

Posted October 10, 2016
JB you magnificent bastard!

Sat down after my morning session and checked my email, downloaded, read, whilst not moving from my coffee. The coffee minions brought me a second one because I hadn't moved.

Had to go and train to calm down.

Appropriate review follows.

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Rhino has opinions thus...

Posted October 11, 2016
If anyone deems his or herself worthy of being a minion of The Burger ... they will click that link, procure the explodey goodness, leave an appropriate 5-star review, and ensure that they do not suffer the wrath of The Rhino.

It has been a few years since I've been forced to unleash furious and righteous anger on this here site ... so, I'm a little pent up.

Please, help me to help you.

jl asserts...

Posted October 11, 2016
Concur, Rhino. Read Paris, it is fkn awesome!

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Vovchara swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted October 11, 2016
Easiest 5 star I ever gave. On Amazon.de :p
I've read a lot of fiction, manly military kind. And JB writes the best soloist action especially when it comes to personal combat. Only Myke Cole comes close.

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Vovchara swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted October 11, 2016
I mean: the best action. What this other word is doing there, I have absolutely no idea :)

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DaveC ducks in to say...

Posted October 11, 2016
Dropping the five star, 'back to the front' review was satisfying , but convincing a few blokes in the lunchroom to read the series was really satisfying.

John Birmingham swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted October 11, 2016
I believe I have a new favourite.

Vovchara swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted October 11, 2016
Well well well, and only reviewer on German Amazon site?

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pi mumbles...

Posted October 11, 2016
I tried to resist, because I'm studying. But a bargain is a bargain.

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David S. ducks in to say...

Posted October 11, 2016
Downloaded it the moment your email arrived, thanks. Will start on it as soon as possible.

Btw, you would've enjoyed Tim Winton in Sydney last night. An audience member asked him about his favourite reads and authors, and he said ... well, that's not important, but I reckon you would've enjoyed his talk anyway :-)

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insomniac has opinions thus...

Posted October 11, 2016
ok, review posted, brain exhausted from all the thinky

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Turlogh Dubh O'Brien ducks in to say...

Posted October 11, 2016
Enjoyed, partied at a wedding , posted review then enjoyed again. With visions of WW 3.1 dancing in my skull...

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Therbs has opinions thus...

Posted October 11, 2016
Finally posted the review after a beer reward.

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sibeen mutters...

Posted October 11, 2016
Christ, I was wondering what all the spam email I receiving was about.

:)

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Don Bagert is gonna tell you...

Posted October 11, 2016
I just read Paris in one sitting. Please open the discussion thread soon. I want to gloat over a prediction I correctly made several months back :)

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Jason mumbles...

Posted October 13, 2016
JB, thanks for the discount and the freebie for Cairo - have a bit of catchup reading to do. From the comments so far (and past experience) am looking forward to it!

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Ronan Moore is gonna tell you...

Posted October 13, 2016
Aaargh, you mongrel!
Read it one sitting then reviewed it just now on Amazon.
Can't wait for 3.1.
Come on, pull your finger out!

John Birmingham ducks in to say...

Posted October 13, 2016
Finger is out.

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plaurence mutters...

Posted October 13, 2016
John, loved the book so much and just couldn't put it done, Having the old characters back was brilliant and felt like I was reading about old friends.

I started reading your books ten years ago and they were my first foray into fiction after seven gruelling years of uni and promising myself I would never read again :)) Every book has been a delight and I am so excited about WW3.1.
Cheers,
Peter Laurence

John Birmingham reckons...

Posted October 13, 2016
Thanks, Peter. That's very kind of you to say.

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Keith Hasama asserts...

Posted October 24, 2016
How do I buy this. It says there are no options in my region.
Also I don't have a Kindle.

Thanks

Keith

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Respond to 'The Hammer falls'

All your cool shit are belong to Slim Jim now

Posted September 21, 2016 into Books by John Birmingham

Think I’m going to need my own Staff Group to plan and organise this war. Been getting some very detailed and valuable material in addition to the thread below. So thanks to all involved in that.

It’s convinced me to bring WW 3.1 forward in my writing schedule. I’ll start it after I finish A Girl in Time, which is now sitting at about 35K words of a planned 90K manuscript. I wanted to get it out before the US election, for reasons which will become obvious when you read it. But I can already tell that’s not gonna happen. And I don’t want to rush the project (and have it explode on me, Samsung style - oooh! Burn!). So I’ll be taking the couple of extra weeks needed to make sure that Girl gets all the attention she needs.

It’s now time to cast the speculative net a little wider than Orders of Battle.

One of the things I enjoyed most in the Stalin’s Hammer series was playing with the economic and social histories of the 1950s. I think the cinematic premiere of Capture Von Braun! was my favourite, although I also enjoyed Harry’s walk through London at the start of Cairo, and building my own Hilton hotel later in that book.

In Rome, you might recall, there was some talk during Harry’s briefing (at the US embassy?) of the Soviets flooding western markets with cheap consumer goods, following the uptime China model. I don’t think this would have actually happened in reality, even in an alternate reality, but I’m going with it because I can. So there.

What I’d be interested in collecting over the next few days are any other ideas, thought balloons, wild speculations etc, as to how the economy, society and culture of the West would have changed since the Transition.

Something other than ‘All your cool shit are belong to Slim Jim now’

92 Responses to ‘All your cool shit are belong to Slim Jim now’

Scott Stanley asserts...

Posted September 21, 2016
I think what would happen is all the easy stuff would be invented. Meaning the crazes that we all thought, "Why didn't we think of that"

Reality TV. Some form of Facebook on a primitive internet.

Political Parties devoted to, "just cuz you say the future means we need to do this policy, screw you future progressives, we're keeping it going THIS way!" Instead of left wing right wing, it would be TEMP vs 21.

John Birmingham asserts...

Posted September 21, 2016
OMG. 1950s Facebook. This HAS to happen now.

Turlogh Dubh O'Brien swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted September 22, 2016
And with it, online dating. Why go to socials, sock hops and blind dates when you can find a date yourself. Add some women's lib and there you have it, an early sexual revolution.

Dirk reckons...

Posted September 22, 2016
on communication:

Coaxial cable was around since 1941.

Quote from wiki: Ethernet is a family of computer networking technologies commonly used in local area networks (LANs) and metropolitan area networks (MANs). It was commercially introduced in 1980 and first standardized in 1983 as IEEE 802.3, and has since been refined to support higher bit rates and longer link distances. Over time, Ethernet has largely replaced competing wired LAN technologies such as token ring, FDDI and ARCNET.

The original 10BASE5 Ethernet uses coaxial cable as a shared medium, while the newer Ethernet variants use twisted pair and fiber optic links in conjunction with hubs or switches. Over the course of its history, Ethernet data transfer rates have been increased from the original 2.94 megabits per second (Mbit/s) to the latest 100 gigabits per second (Gbit/s). The Ethernet standards comprise several wiring and signaling variants of the OSI physical layer in use with Ethernet.

Systems communicating over Ethernet divide a stream of data into shorter pieces called frames. Each frame contains source and destination addresses, and error-checking data so that damaged frames can be detected and discarded; most often, higher-layer protocols trigger retransmission of lost frames. As per the OSI model, Ethernet provides services up to and including the data link layer.

Since its commercial release, Ethernet has retained a good degree of backward compatibility. Features such as the 48-bit MAC address and Ethernet frame format have influenced other networking protocols. The primary alternative for some uses of contemporary LANs is Wi-Fi, a wireless protocol standardized as IEEE 802.11.

For Optical fiber communication you will need:

optical fibers: created in 1954, so that could be sooner

Gallium arsenide semiconductor lasers: laser developed origanaly in 1960, but you could push it forward I think by 10-15 years.

Quote from wiki: Coherent light emission from a gallium arsenide (GaAs) semiconductor diode (the first laser diode) was demonstrated in 1962 by two US groups led by Robert N. Hall at the General Electric research center and by Marshall Nathan at the IBM T.J. Watson Research Center. There has been ongoing debate as to whether IBM or GE invented the first laser diode which was largely based on theoretical work by William P. Dumke at IBM Labs in Yonkers, NY. The priority is given to General Electric group who have obtained and submitted their results earlier; they also went further and made a resonant cavity for their diode. It was initially speculated Ben Lax amongst and other leading physicists that silicon or germanium could be used to create a lasing effect, but William P. Dumke insisted that these materials would not work and instead suggested Gallium Arsenide would be a good candidate according to his theoretical work. The first visible wavelength GaAs laser diode was demonstrated by Nick Holonyak, Jr. later in 1962.

and these gents would be nice to have on board too I think: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traitorous_eight

Electricity generating windmills were first created in the 1890's so that wouldn't be a stretch either

So in all: doable if you can get a chip to market. ingredients are all there (tv as monitor, specs on cables and connectors etc).

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Thalesian ducks in to say...

Posted September 21, 2016
I've been thinking about the rise of religious fundamentalism.

Would post-emergence culture be more or less religious? Would they have the stark Christian vs Islam semi-divide that we have now? Would Israel exist in the form we have today?

I don't really have any answers to these questions... maybe someone else does?

John Birmingham is gonna tell you...

Posted September 21, 2016
I don't think you can get that divide without 9-11. You've got the preconditions with the west's need for oil and the installation of the House of Saud. But they need to come here and kill a lot of us to gain our attention.

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insomniac would have you know...

Posted September 21, 2016
Would they be transitioning to a carbonless economy? Maybe advanced solar panel are beyond their reach to start but wind and tidal are pretty much mechanical devices already in use. Would they say no to nuclear or go down the path of more than ever?
Given the Soviet Union is becoming China will capitalism just keep on going despite signs today that we should be doing something different? Will there be some sort of socialist capitalism model that doesn't end in the ever widening gap between rich and poor? Will there be a 1% or will that just be Slim Jim?
What happened to other wars that would have occurred already ie Korea, or starting soon ie Vietnam? Didn't happen or subsumed into WW3.

John Birmingham mutters...

Posted September 21, 2016
Big Oil is in the middle of destroying LA's trams. I don't see them letting solar get a foot in. But I'd like it happen, so maybe it will.

damian ducks in to say...

Posted September 23, 2016
Even as late as the 50s not all oil folks were part of the Big Bad. Southern USA would still have wildcatters and rugged individualists getting out and about into parts of the world where the drilling might be good in search of a plucky fortune. So a character like THAT taking an interest in solar would be interesting.

Suggest a google earth sweep of West Texas even now...

Dirk reckons...

Posted September 23, 2016
somebody like this guy perhaps: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._Boone_Pickens Saw him on a Dutch tv doc the other day ...

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Rob swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted September 21, 2016
I expect that the English people will look at history and fear for their post world war 2 social welfare /national health model of economics as dead in the water. But this might only bring the left to ferment earlier than the Thatcher/neo con agenda of the 80s and 90s. They might actually do some fighting in the streets and Pete Townsend wont need to write 'wont get fooled again'.

Also pete townsend might get influenced by the likes of Millions of Dead cops and Black Flag and bring hardcore punk rock to the 60s, instead of RnB.

Crustie punks organising raves and house music in the 50s and 60s would be a fun idea too.

Corduroy might not make an appearance in the fashion world. (thank Christ for that)

John Birmingham is gonna tell you...

Posted September 21, 2016
Could possibly lead to even MOAR socialism as they try to embed the political culture.

NBlob asserts...

Posted September 23, 2016
Or more corduroy

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Dave W swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted September 21, 2016
Vaccines, birth control, anti-biotics, big pharma! Some of which leads us through to earlier women's lib, better management of superbugs, 3rd world population issues and designer drugs (cf Rob's 50s & 60s raves).

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jason ducks in to say...

Posted September 21, 2016
I'm seeing a rush for raw materials. I believe there are only three major lithium mines in the world, all in South America. I'd definitely be trying to own them to control the development of batteries and therefore portable devices. The battle for Australia's natural resources, including uranium, could get ugly with China on the doorstep and no big brother with a nuclear bomb to back us up.

John Birmingham has opinions thus...

Posted September 21, 2016
I see a massive acceleration of an already massive migration program to Australia, possibly leading to some tension with other English speaking countries for poaching their population.

Dirk asserts...

Posted September 22, 2016
When was the great Greek immigration wave to Oz? With Greece occupied, it would mean in this time line less, or more like boatpeople. Greeks fleeing via Turkey for example. But there are a lot of people adrift I think. Displaced Frenchmen and Italians, Poles and Czechs who fought at the side of the Allies ...

insomniac ducks in to say...

Posted September 22, 2016
Don't forget about the rare earth metal sources.

Turlogh Dubh O'Brien asserts...

Posted September 22, 2016
No Germany = no Turks migrating there. Will the other war-ravaged economies open their doors to cheap foreign labor?

Dirk would have you know...

Posted September 22, 2016
Well Germany still exists, but the Turks came in the 60's after the Italians and Spanish.

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WarDog is gonna tell you...

Posted September 21, 2016
I suspect there would be a big push from many sides of the political spectrum to make all uptime tech and ideas non patentable and non-copyrightable.

There endeth Slim Jim's empire.

I say that because any attempt to copyright/patent uptime tech invalidates itself by prior art. And there would be lots of vested interests that want that tech but don't want to have to pay for it.

So I'd imagine that for a while, it would be a free for all in which everything in a non copyrightable knock-off. Essentially it would be the 50s on steroids in the 50s.

And then you would start to see the glimmer of new 21C tech which would be the real gold.

John Birmingham has opinions thus...

Posted September 21, 2016
I see patents and copyright law failing in the face of this, but Slim Jim's first mover advtange and his natural douchiness will stand him in good stead

insomniac ducks in to say...

Posted September 21, 2016
With all of the other 21C information making its way back it would be impossible to believe that a full set of patent applications would not have and as such it would be prior art in any attempt to capitalise on it by protecting it. As you say SJD would by being the early mover. Friends in high places would also help.

HAVOCK21 reckons...

Posted September 21, 2016
I see Australia having more extensive territories.

Perhaps Malaysia, Singapore and hell yes, Bali too. Given an intake of locals, our tech which nobody seems to have mentioned. The US cannot do all the work in Asia, maybe some additional bases too, Brunei and Sarawak as additional Australian states ( territories)

Can see a tap into the labor markets in Asia too.

Given the push by the ruskies, chrissy Island gets a big arse airfield too. RAAF base. Look for Aus controlling the straights of Malacca perhaps in concert with Britain and the US.

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ShaneAlpha mumbles...

Posted September 21, 2016
It's got me wondering about the British Empire.

Would it break up the way it did? I think the British might have learned some uptime lessons and would have pushed for a more Federal form of the Commonwealth of Nations and hopefully have handled self-rule devolution better than in our timeline.

And Palestine/Israel is a whole 'nother level of septic mess. Not forgetting Lebanon, which in the 50's was a tourist hotspot. And with a divided France would North Africa even be a French concern?

And what has happened to the big C21 items by then? They wouldn't have been able to maintain the Havoc or Trident at a C21 level of capability, eventually something vital would go sprung that they could not repair/replace.


North Atlantic - the better sensors developed from C21 would make the G-I-UK gap a killing ground if the Sovs tried to force it. Especially with the leap the Havoc gave the sub designers, which the Sovs didn't get.

With that big a Soviet penetration post WW2.3 all the European continental and British governments would probably embrace a larger Reserve/Militia model than our timeline. Possible something along the lines of the Swiss model, but with a lot more man portable anti- armour.

Australia would be booming even more than it did in out timeline. They know where the major resources are. There would be even more post war European migration. Can't see the white Australia policy being repealed. If they're smart, massive constriction aid to Indonesia and assisting Damiri to consolidate his authority.

Dirk reckons...

Posted September 22, 2016
Well for starters JB referenced in Rome the Principalities. So an undivided India (maybe federalized) but on a leech from London.

On subs: true uptime research will be used. But the soviets would lag behind in technology I think. So they will take the obvious route: build inferior subs, like Whiskey, Romeo, Foxtrot or Tango, but build them in huge numbers (500-700 hulls). Fight NATO until they run out of torpedo's so to say.

On mobilization: i concur on personal weapons for reservists. I would go for vehicle based AT weapons (pickup with a Tow or Milan) for Landwehr/rear echelon troops at nearby/local barracks. That way you are more mobile.

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John Birmingham is gonna tell you...

Posted September 21, 2016
So many good ideas!

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Guy swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted September 21, 2016
The thing about the British is our inate conservatism which combines with a surprising tolerance and liberalism. This is at our best, of course. Unfortunately we can do bigotry as well.

British history is a story of evolution rather than revolution. We change, but we do it at arelatively gentle pace. This is why we avoided the revolutionary excesses of France and the continent.

The interesting issue here is how the arrival of thousands of time travellers from the 21st Century would affect the evolutionary process.

Personally I think the pragmatists would realise that all was up withe the Empire as it stood - plenty of people realised this even at the time. The future would lie in forging partnerships with the USA, Australasia and other like minded countries, while offering the rest of the Empire independence, although trying to manage the process to maintain stability.

Britain would recognise that they were the one European power able to join America in forging the future. Germany was bombed and defeated, while France is partially occupied.

A world will emerge with the west dominated to a much greater extent by the "Anglosphere" than in OTL. It's the English speaking world against the communists.

Socialism as we knew it in the post war decades would have its credibility largely removed when people saw the record of what would have happened (stagnation, strikes, etc). Equally, the crusty Conservatism of the same period would be likely to give way much earlier to a Thatcherite free-market liberalism. Classless capitalism will emerge thirty years early, and the country would be much richer as a result, especially as continental European rivals would be less of a threat thanks to the new post-war map and Asian rivals occupied by the Russians.

Domestically we would see the rise of the teenager faster than happened in OTL. Also, the rise of (gasp) sex. The example of the uptimers would bring forward pressure to legalise homosexuality and abortion, the acceptance of pre-marital sex and loads of pornography circulating through the new technological platforms.

Evolution would come under strain as older people born in the reign of Queen Victoria come face to face with gay clubs and porn mags. A greatly exaggerated generation gap would be likely to develop.

Having said that, most of the rest of the world would happily swap their problems for those experienced by the British, Americans and Australians.

John Birmingham mumbles...

Posted September 22, 2016
On the sexual revolution I tend to agree with the The Rhino that the example of the uptimers might do the exact opposite of bringing forth the legalisation of gay marriage etc. you're dealing with a comparatively conservative and traumatised culture. I suspect there'd be a heap of push back. Although, of course, you would indeed have, er, push forward from the uptimers.

Dirk mutters...

Posted September 22, 2016
Oh sure there will be friction on sex. But in this time frame you will already have forerunners. Hugh Hefner started Playboy in 53: well he wouldn't have to advertise now. Masters and Johnson started their research in 57.

And sure, you won't be kicking of in Salt Lake city or in de deep south bible belt like west Texas. But Vermont, New York city, San Francisco, Hollywood, maybe even free and rebuilding Berlin with a surplus of 26-35 year old women?

sidenote: interesting character: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Wilson_(Texas_politician)

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John Petherick asserts...

Posted September 21, 2016
The social and religious effects could be really interesting to explore ... reaction to the Up-Timers could go in so many different ways.

Would Vatican II happen early? Or, happen at all? Could there be a schism within the Catholic Church over future events?

What would L. Ron Hubbard do, presented with future history concerning Scientology? What about all of the other aspiring prophets, gurus, etc. who have been handed blueprints on forming new religious movements?

Someone mentioned lithium mining, where a couple operations in South America currently dominate world supply due to cost of production. The Up-Timers would deliver information on *every* major mineral or oil discovery in the coming century, not to mention 21st century anti-submarine warfare technology that could be used to find other, previously undiscovered metallic ore deposits.

Industrial development is really difficult to predict ... entire industries might not develop as the UpTime information causes leap-frogging over intermediate stages ... from vacuum tubes to integrated circuits in one bound. Future information about health and environmental consequences might have an effect depending on social and economic pressures in particular countries. Asbestos might stay in the ground and electricity generation will look a lot different.

From a public health perspective, the late 1940's or 50's might be early enough to prevent or severely curtail the spread of HIV. Information about broad-spectrum antibiotics might curtail the development of antibiotic resistance, or advance widespread resistance a couple decades.

Dirk mutters...

Posted September 21, 2016
With the Soviets about 500meters from the Sistine Chappel and Pius XII being ill in 1955 (wiki it) the Vatican could do bold things. Angelo Giuseppe Roncalli (aka John XXIII) could be elected in secret to become "Papa Designata" and stashed somewhere out of harms way. And then Vatican II can happen. And even more expanded even then now. Child abuse: no tolerance. Celibacy: there are to many sexual frustrated people in the clergy (male and female) so let the have a spouse. A gay one may be a step to progressive but kick it around.

Agree on the health and safety things. Cancer research and trauma-care get also a kick from free 70 years of experience. Smallpox irradication, child innoculation and polio prevention ... no brainers.

Turlogh Dubh O'Brien ducks in to say...

Posted September 22, 2016
On the other side of the coin, will there be a push towards revival of Russian Orthodoxy to undermine the Soviet rule? Or will Stalin emulate China and just say, "Sure, you can have your bishops - but the state picks them."

NBlob puts forth...

Posted October 1, 2016
+1 Excellent thinks.

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Dirk mumbles...

Posted September 21, 2016
My 2-bits for modern utopia:
If you take research on what drives society, you will get a few parameters that have huge impacts.
1. Education/information
2. Power generation/consumption
3. Sanitation and Healthcare
4. Infrastructure & Housing
5. Political, Religious and economic organization
6. The ratio of primary (agriculture/mining), secondary (manufacturing) and tertiary (services) sectors in an economy
7. Technical advancements/science
8. Specific local factors & world politics

Ok maybe it's good to start with a baseline.
Let's meet Jan Modaal, your average European male in general, your average dutch male in particular. Born in 1910, Jan was 28 in 1938. As 80% of the population he was a christian, would have had 8 years of education between 6-14 (only 10% would have had a high-school degree or higher) and started to work as an apprentice at 15. After his two years of national service in 1928-1930, he married Truus, a local girl from more or less the same background he was.
He would be:
working for around 48 hours a week (mo-sa),
do some repairing chores at home or tend to his livestock in the evening,
Maybe after getting his week's wages on Friday go to the local watering hole (about one in 5 males were what we would describe as alcoholics), which could lead him to going fifty shades on Truus with his belt when he came home (domestic abuse was around 10%),
listen to the wireless, read a paper, or more rarely read a book from the local library, if it was not the bible he was into. Reading a book was rare. Mostly the doctor, the reverent/pastor, the notarial/real estate lawyer, your odd local nobleman/landowner or one or two local business tycoons did that. They were the only learned men in the community.
have three meals a day,
go to bed by 10 and fuck Truus three times a week, creating in his livespan on average 3-6 kids.
In the meantime, Truus would raise the kids, do the washing, cleaning, sowing, cooking, a little gardening, the shopping at the local butcher, baker and grocer (supermarkets were not invented yet over here), look after their parents who would be living on walking distance and be dead tired in the evening. But she was dependent so divorce was not an option. Also the social pressure of the time would keep her down. Before they were married, she had worked as a shop assistant, but was kicked out when she said "I do".
Weren't it not for the war Jan would have statistically lived to be around 64 (Truus to 66).
In September 1939 Jan was called up as an reservist, and was bored senseless in the Phoney war until April/May 1940. After a few days (in Holland)/weeks (rest of western Europe) of fighting he was a POW for a few weeks and send home afterwards. The Modaal family survived the war not being either in the resistance (about 1% was roughly 90.000 people in the Netherlands) or in some form of extreme right wing activity (also around 1%). Out of a population of around 9 million, around in our timeline around 205.000 didn't. For the most part those casualties were Jews (around 105.000), political prisoners (25.000 either shot or worked to death in camps), service men dying in action (15.000), bombingvictims or civilians caught in the crossfire (20.000) and those who starved in the Hungerwinter of 1944-45 (40.000).
Here the first change kicks in: being liberated totally in September 1944 without the destruction of for example Zealand and Arnhem instead of may 1945, would have resulted in around 50.000 less fatalities and even more wounded. Also Dutch infrastructure (Rotterdam harbor, dykes in the southwest) and factories wouldn't have been that hard hit.
So let's say we are in January 1945 and the following things happen:
1. Education/information
Disclosure of the Holocaust. This will lead to a more positive stance towards Israel.
Disclosure of abuse in clergy. This led to an accelerated loss of faith in the church and falling numbers of believers.
Shortening the workweek from 48 to 40 hours, highering the compulsory age of education from 15 to 18, with only a nominal tuition fee and introducing free but compulsory courses for the 18+ generation. Re-education keeps your workers-class occupied, gives them a chance to better themselves, and increases your international competitive edge.
2. Power generation/consumption
The Netherlands now knows 15 years early, it's sitting on the largest bubble of natural gas in Western Europe. So it will invest in harnessing that first, but at the same time renewing it's infrastructure and housing-stock to be prepared for the "Green Revolution". So the new burroughs in Holland, will be built for installing solar paneling by having roofs facing south, so that in 20-30 years time (around the 1970's oil crisis) you can upgrade very fast and cheaply. Infrastructural ducts built in the new streets and upgraded to those parts of the country worth saving, would make a fast outroling of natural gas piping (or block heating) and telecommunication also very cheap and fast for the future. Further gains would be made by building up an National electricity grid with a lot of spare capacity, and going from 110V to 220Volts 20 years ahead of time. This to make electricity production and distribution more efficient and less prone to malfunction.
3. Sanitation and Healthcare & 4. Infrastructure & Housing
Apart from the housing issue, the Dutch quickly improve their road (connecting them to the German Autobahns in the east, and similar schemes in Belgium in the south), rail and waterway infrastructure. Rotterdam, Vlissingen, Amsterdam en Delfzijl harbors are expanded en made ready for container shipping and for Reforger type troop movements. Extra land is created in the former Zuiderzee, by making not only the Flevopolders but also the Markerwaard ready for population and agriculture. The Flevopolders were ready in 1954, the Markerwaard will be in the early sixties. And that extra real estate is needed too with the baby-boom and migration.
Running water, the introduction of a National health insurance and a (abide watered down) National Pension Scheme did the rest to boost life expectancy from 64 before the war to well over 70 in the early fifties.
With the decline of the clergy, anti conception came available in 1950. Abortion, pornography and euthanasia were legalized in 1952, followed by prostitution and canabis in 1954. The growth of the latter was strictly state controlled but highly lucrative.
5. Political, Religious and economic organization and 6. The ratio of primary (agriculture/mining), secondary (manufacturing) and tertiary (services) sectors in an economy
In 1940 the ratio would have been 30% primary, 40% secondary, 30 percent tertiary.
With new technical insights and Marshall aid, production in agriculture increased 5 fold in only a couple of years. Secondary sectors were increased by buying up interesting parts of the German economy (shipbuilding and some aircraft production, Belgium beating them by buying up Mauser/Heckler&Koch for merger with Fabrique National and the Brits and to a lesser extant the French concentrating on buying strategic stakes in the nascent German auto industry).
This leading to full employment in 1948, the Dutch started to import cheap German, Spanish and displaced Italian and French workers. Moroccan, Turkish, Surinamese and Antillian migrants were no longer an option.
7. Technical advancements/science
With the liberation in 1944 a lot of patents and designs came available for the likes of Philips (electronics), Hollandse Signaal (radar), ASML (computing), Stork (enginering), Werkspoor/Holec (diesel and electric engines), DAF (cars and trucks), Fokker (airplanes), Organon (pharma), DSM and AKZO (chemicals) and Rijn-Schelde-Verolme shipping.
Futher investment in education and science helped to harness those patents and create the Dutch Wirtschaftswunder, surpassing even that of the German one.
The Soviets dumping household appliances (toasters, vacuum-cleaners, washing-machines) had a couple of effects though. Phillips would have gotten overrun by those cheap stuff and would more concentrating on electronics and medical systems, boosting research in those fields. And women's rights with a lightening of their workload would be springloaded too. Was Stalin a secret feminist, did he saw this as a way to destabilize the west or was this just lucky?
8. Specific local factors & world politics
8a. Indonesia:
The Dutch are furious about the loss of Indonesia. In an intricate game of good cop (Kollhammer and the Australian government) vs. bad cop (Prince Bernhard and foreign ministers Stikker and Luns) Moertopo got a choice: pay silver in the form of
a. only partial nationalization of Dutch assets in Indonesia (for ex. Royal Dutch (oil), Biliton (mining), and cash crops and spices) and getting Dutch assistance/know-how to build up infrastructure and production capacity. Indonesian markets would stay open for Dutch imports to, the Dutch taking care also for distribution of Indonesian products in Europe.
b. paying out a billion dollars a year to the Dutch government for a period of 25 years.
c. being rearmed and trained by the Dutch government at Indonesia's expense with surplus WW2 weaponry at first and watered down modern equipment in the early fifties
d. granting independence to the Mollucas, Eastern Timor (Portugese) and Papua (the latter as a whole would become an Australian dependency).
or face an full scale invasion like that in 1946, which would have cost Indonesia at least a 100.000 casualties.
Moertopo, the pragmatist, chose to pay. As extra insurance the Dutch found and captured 2 out of the 3 main rivals to Moertopo, namely Soekarno and Hatta. They are put on trail for their role in the Japanese occupation and given life sentences at her majesties pleasure and shipped of to a penal colony in Surinam. Every time Moertopo complains about the silver, he's asked if he thinks amnesty for those two would make for an nice Christmas gift ...
8b. Supplying Israel
Ever the trading nation, but feeling having a debt to Israel for having aided in the deportation and killing of over a 100.000 of their kin, the Dutch decided to help build up the place. Making a small profit on the side wasn't frowned upon either.
Dutch agents all over the world scowered up surplus German, US and UK made arms, shipped them home, refurbished them and send them with ammo and spare parts straight to Tel Aviv and Eilat harbors. Israeli military personnel was also trained in the Netherlands and the Israeli arms and electronic industries given a shot in the arm by Dutch investment.
8.c Europe
Seeing it could not go back to its neutral past, the Netherlands became one of the founding members of NATO in 1945. A breakthrough was the formation of the combined Benelux navy in 1949 latter also incorporating the German North Sea squadron. The Dutch, Belgian and nascent Luxembourgian Air Force also work closely together especially on training issues. And the Dutch arms-, shipping and aviation industry with the lack of German, Italian and partly French competition is booming.
It also was part of the first group of European Community of Coal and Steel in 1946 and the subsequent European Free trade zone of 1947. The Dutch are in favor of even bigger steps, proposing a European Union in 1960. Though in favor of it, Churchill and to an lesser extant De Gaulle are dragging their feet about it, fearing a loss of influence.

Hmmm did I leave some stuff out?

John Petherick mumbles...

Posted September 21, 2016
Of course, the large nickel, copper and gold mines in Indonesia would be very, very attractive to the Dutch government. Particularly since 10th generation nickel-pig iron technology would be available from the Up-Timers. Giving up Irian Jaya would be a tough choice, then, because of the Grasberg Mine.[br][br]
The changed end of the War would significantly reduce post-War Dutch emigration. Instead of refugees and war brides heading (mainly) to Canada, it would be dissenters from the new political and social order heading to ... say ... a recalcitrant nationalist South Africa. The emigration of farmers which occurred in the late 20th century moves up a couple decades.

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Joe would have you know...

Posted September 21, 2016
Came to post the same thing about resorces in Aust. There'd be a minerals rush on all over Oz, and then hangover when state governments say "use it or lose it". Big money lost/made.
Plus all the o&g fields would be slated for development, but probably in a more orderly fashion due to technical difficulties in getting NW shelf & other offshore deposits up.
What about Aust/Nz troops in sth Japan? ANZAC - Honushu Plain?

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MuddyRunner swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted September 22, 2016
It's perhaps only a small thing, but I'd really like to see Alan Turing NOT being hounded to an early death by the British authorities on account of his homosexuality. Maybe the more liberal attitudes the Uptimers bring with them could alter the Establishment's behaviour sufficiently such that this doesn't happen? He could then go on to found an ARM-equivalent a few decades earlier than happened in our time.

DaveC would have you know...

Posted September 22, 2016
Agree about Turing. Give him a safe environment and a flexi-pad and who knows what contribution he could make to the war effort? It raises an interesting point about resurrecting dead people, or rather, to stop them dying?

Imagine George Orwell organising resistance cells behind Soviet lines? Or J.F.K's older, much more glamorous fly-boy brother, Joseph, becoming a admiral with political ambitions?

There's also the possibility of turning former foes? Imagine a different foreign policy result where a Captain Heath equivalent could persuade Fidel and Che, or Ho Chi Minh, to use their charisma for the allied side?

Finally, while the weather changed, we can assume that all geological events would play out as in the original timeline. (not so relevant in 55 and 56 except for a big quake in Greece). But that would change natural disasters for 70 odd years.

John Birmingham mutters...

Posted September 22, 2016
All your Turings are belong to California now.

Dave W swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted September 22, 2016
Disaster response- and planning. Skopje mid-60s, get the people out before it happens.

Murphy_of_Missouri would have you know...

Posted September 22, 2016
The weather patterns changed, per Final Impact. Why wouldn't everything else?

Dave C reckons...

Posted September 22, 2016
Valid point, Murph. Perhaps it did. My idea came from the perspective that a butterfly's flutter might cause a hurricane on the other side of the world, but landing a few extra ships may not have altered tectonic plate momentum or magma distribution?

Dirk asserts...

Posted September 22, 2016
Agree on the tectonic plates and the quakes. ps you wanna get Harry Flowers to the zone too https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_computer

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Rhino has opinions thus...

Posted September 22, 2016
There are many, many places in the 40's/50's US that are not going to welcome these godless, immoral uptimers with open arms. i would expect that there would be a tremendous amount of backlash against a lot of the societal changes ... so much so, that the riots of the 60's will look like play time in comparison.

The children of the 60's were raised by parents born after the depression. They saw the birth of the juggernaut of the American Dream and lived much easier lives than those of their parents and were probably more open to the next level of evolution in society in the 60's. Since all of these societal changes are moved forward by a decade and a half, AND, exponentially disruptive as they are not arising organically, PLUS the young adults of the WW3.1 world were raised by adults whose formative years were spent during the great depression EQUALS massive cultural frisson.

I could see a very real threat to the cohesion of the union.

Turlogh Dubh O'Brien is gonna tell you...

Posted September 22, 2016
Perhaps instead of the revolts of '68, we have the revolts of '58? And the likes of George Wallace get a counter-movement going?

Joe reckons...

Posted September 22, 2016
Yeah I can see some serious stresses. But it won't just be the US. With uptimers mainly settling in Sydney, London as well as LA, you'll have 3 islands of 21C bobbing around in 50's ville. Maybe even more of a split between those cities and the rest. And they'll attract anyone who wants a small taste of uptime & be the targets for all the loathing of die-hard downtimers.

NBlob reckons...

Posted September 23, 2016
Yeah but, I think you overlook the appeal of the Shiny. Parents have jacked up at the "degeneracy" of Young People. Time's tide sweeps away the concerns of the previous generations, they can gesticulate & curse at clouds but 1950 post transition would ( I believe) look a lot more like 1980 than 1960. The injection of 7(?) decades of culture would simply shatter the status quo.

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Turlogh Dubh O'Brien puts forth...

Posted September 22, 2016
I think Hollywood will at first have a field day with the movie possibilities that can be made, but then will balloon and oversaturate the market quickly. Stalin, of course, will not be outdone and will try to export movies of his own (remember, he hated John Wayne with a vengeance). Something along the lines of East German cowboy movies that portrayed the Native Americans in a more positive light vis-a-vis imperialism.

Sports will become a great industry. Jerseys will sell like hotcakes. Will there be a Champions League? There must. The Soviets may have a Fraternal Nations League as well. Will basketball go worldwide?

Video games? World at War type of stuff? Flight emulation? Sports simulation? Massive online RPGs?

Literature? More sci-fi. More alt-history even in mainstream books. Books dealing with the aftermath of the war and the Transition. Probably less Tolkien-esque stuff.

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Murphy_of_Missouri swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted September 22, 2016
One has to wonder what would happen with the Civil Rights Movement.

It is all too easy to see a contemporary like Martin Luther King Junior reading about what happened after his death and perhaps coming to a different conclusion about how the Jim Crow South should be handled. Or if he doesn't, someone else might.

Feminism, what happens there? Do Second Generation and Third Generation Feminists take one look at 2021 hastag Victim Culture and have a great, "What the Fuck?" moment?

Gender identity. They'll have a hard enough time dealing with the acceptance of a homosexual male or female. How will they handle transgendered?

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Murphy_of_Missouri ducks in to say...

Posted September 22, 2016
Apparently we do not have the ability to build paragraphs anymore at the Burger. Separate posts it is then. Suburban Sprawl, something Kansas City suffers from. Does it pick up pace as a result of the realization that things like school desegregation are going to become a fact of life? Do city's sprawl outwards even faster, leaving the central cores a wasteland of the impoverished? How do city planners and managers handle that issue?

insomniac would have you know...

Posted September 22, 2016
Apparently you need to use < br > (without the spaces obviously.

See, I'm doing it now.

Murphy_of_Missouri has opinions thus...

Posted September 22, 2016
Oh, code and shit.
Like this?

Murphy_of_Missouri puts forth...

Posted September 22, 2016
Oh, code and shit.


Like this?

NBlob would have you know...

Posted September 23, 2016
Yep.

White / capital flight was only possible after roadways & personal ownership of motor vehicles became commonplace.

I see a global scooter culture, like South East Asia, but more so.

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Murphy_of_Missouri puts forth...

Posted September 22, 2016
In short, I see far less cultural and national unity in a post-Transition United States circa mid 1950s than was originally the case in our own timeline. It will also be far more difficult to paperover such issues with propaganda as was possible in the original timeline.

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Murphy_of_Missouri puts forth...

Posted September 22, 2016
One final point, and relevant to the present day. Do Americans trust their government? In the original timeline there was a reasonable amount of trust for the Federal Government. After they learn about Nixon, McNamara, and a host of other issues, will that trust remain?

I think the leaders of the United States are going to have a very chaotic, hot mess on their hands stateside. Their military woes will be the least of their concerns.

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Mark R, Whittington mumbles...

Posted September 22, 2016
I wonder if there might not be an earlier space race, but this time based on grabbing lunar and asteroid resources we now know exist but didn't back in the original timeline instead of science and national prestige.

insomniac mumbles...

Posted September 22, 2016
"...an earlier space race..."


You mean like space lizards or something?

NBlob is gonna tell you...

Posted September 23, 2016
Shhhhhh

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Dirk would have you know...

Posted September 22, 2016
In daily life and in culture:

In music: maybe to early for a miniMoog, but some instruments will have hit the market: peddle steel guitar, the Les Paul would go into production in 1961, but that could be advanced, as would the ES-355TD (yep that's Lucille). Elvis started taking off in 55, but he could use a fitness regime. Does Gina de Marco still have room for extra curricular activities? I think it would be to early for either Booker T. Jones & the MG's, the Beatles or the Stones (middle teens). Cash was just out off the service in Germany, so he could be starting, as would Muddy Waters. The BeeGees started their first group in 55 (and at ages 9 they could reach the notes in Staying Alive quite nicely I think).

Books: Ernest Hemingway should stay out of bushplanes this time around, and have some psycho treatment. Jim Henson made his first Kermit the Frog: @Havoc fast track the Muppets?

On stuff: shame Turin is Russian now; it's the home of espresso machines. 55 was the year Macdonalds started, I would go for a chain of Starbucks or a kindred brand of coffee shop. And a more healthy drivethru

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HAVOCK21 is gonna tell you...

Posted September 22, 2016
FKN CAPS LOCK will come in FKN FASTER TOO! I reckon!

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Sparty swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted September 22, 2016
well given the events of Stalin's Hammer is suspect Space is well and truly raced -and sadly given conflict on earth i suspect will be at the back for resources -having said that someone will be trying to replicate the wormhole experiment (however misguided) and I'm assuming it does spatial as well as temporal displacement - it may have been a MacGuffin for the books but for the people of AoT its really and needs to be explored. I always fancied the idea of a boomer ending up in orbit- sub would make an excellent deep space craft once engines and a few things were added.

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Sparty mutters...

Posted September 22, 2016
Hollywood wise would cue on Capture Von Braun! People want flesh and blood movie stars - so what if Clooney was a great draw uptime, he don't exist here- and alot of the movies / media the uptimers brought back would play like fantasy - "the wire" is no longer a drama about real life social decay but a fantest about a world that might never exist. Where as "The Rise and Rise of thin James" starring Humprey Bogart as the worlds biggest entrepreneur opposite Lana Turner would be far more real. (and I'd love to hear bogey narrate the slim jim like V.O. about BJ's ).

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HAVOCK21 would have you know...

Posted September 22, 2016
hate to say it... but the PORN Industry will go FKN NUTS

insomniac mutters...

Posted September 23, 2016
Sounds like you're doing it wrong

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Myriads would have you know...

Posted September 23, 2016
On Human Sexuality: The up-timers bring a lot of things with them to the past the directly and indirectly impact this area.

The big tangibles are Birth Control, The massive porn collections that would have come back on the personal devices, and the medical solutions to many STD’s.

The big intangibles are The philosophies that women now hold about being in charge of their own sexuality and pleasure, the mindsets that result from exposure to the internets 24/7 hot and cold running porn, all the social inclusionary thinking that evolved regarding homosexuality, transgender, and so forth perspectives.

And there are multitudes of small tangibles and intangibles also.

All of these would have an effect on the past.

I’ll pull one example: The effect of the existence of the web on sexual development.

The internet solved one of the core issues that most humans feel about their sexuality “Am I the only person who feels this way?” Very early on fetish communities spawned and people who once grew up isolated and having to work out how they felt alone (taking years and decades sometimes) suddenly had a tribe of like minded folks to share and learn from. This ‘normalized’ a huge number of fetish (really paraphilia but the bastardized meaning of fetish is what everyone uses now) behaviors and allowed many people to just be more comfortable in their own likes. These stable communities in turn became the first stop for young teens just exploring their own starting sexualities, and finding there are others with feeling that match that came before and gaining a normalized perspective earlier and thus advancing their own sexual wellness by years. They start having GOOD sex lives sooner, and that in turn gives them more room to explore, and the liberalization of sexual outlooks builds. The porn archives brought back will be massive. Odds are just one person with an unusual fetish will have hundreds of media about it on a personal device will be common. These collections will form the center of dozens of sexual communities on the new internet of the 50’s.

The internet tends to destroy some sexual taboos: Let’s say a nude polaroid of a female classmate got loose in 1983. The trauma of it would be massive to the young lady. Life changing. It would be a BIG DEAL, and be the scandal of the school for months. Flash forward to now, and while a young woman might be embarrassed horridly if a nude was pictured on line, it also sinks into “There are a trillion other nudes on the web, who cares?” too. Heck, many young women post such images of themselves without a thought. The nudity taboo in America is being slow degraded by the web.

Just the fact that there is a boatload of porn that shows people enjoying themselves doing X, Y, and Z will lead people to ‘try’ that. When the Joy of Sex was published in the 70’s it introduced people to ideas they had never encountered, or thought were too taboo to ever discuss with a partner. And emboldened them to try. The future porn and other media will do the same.

The fact that birth control that is safe and effective and that drugs exist to deal with any 50’s STD cannot be underestimated as these two things were the foundation stones of the 60’s and 70’s sexual revolutions. Availability will be the key issue here, as laws restricting sales of contraceptives were (from todays perspective) backwards to an amazing degree in the US of the 50’s. But some company is gonna want that sweet birth control market.

The impact on the culture will be massive and very much a flash point. The huge majority of the population will quietly absorb the lessons and impact and become more liberal as they see how that line of thinking works for them surrounding their own sexuality. But cultural power nodes (The Church, Government institutions, so forth)will be threatened on the public levels as they will see how all this undercuts them in the future and will try to stop it now. Morality police will be recruiting big time. Slut Shaming in the new 50’s will make todays version look like kindergarten,and so forth. The war on sex will polarize into Us vs Them much faster, and be in of those core questions that people have to answer as to where they come down on. (Most will say ‘Us’ in public, but be a ‘Them’ in private)

Our sexual revolution was not the smoothest one, but it was somewhat orderly and managed to absorb each new thing as it came and move forward. Dumping the entire load on a culture at once males it… difficult. It’s not a sexual revolution but a sexual civil war.

Hef and Playboy will never happen. Playboy was a happy accident that grew out of Hef’s ability to exploit that first nude of Miss Monroe and mate his progressive outlook of lifestyle to it and grow with the changing (slowly) climate of America. The climate will be totally different, and the field will be crowded. Playboy was just one of dozens of mens magazines of it’s day. It won. But in the New 50’s How many of those others might snag a nude of a major female celebrity? With a lot of uptime tech loose, someone would use it to get such shots. And of course people being people would make their own for private use and they would get loose (see the ‘fappening’ from a few years back) (New 50’s hacking culture would be a weird and fun thing to see, but we digress) Playboy would face long odds. Though Hef might see a path.

This has gotten too long. But sexuality and culture are in my wheelhouse of knowledge. I can say much more.

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FormerlyKnownAsSimon is gonna tell you...

Posted September 23, 2016
I prob can't add anything useful but it's bloody interesting reading. If i could put my hand up to push little markers around a table with a long stick i'll be happy.
i can't remember in the books (and haven't read the latest one - soz! Should refresh my memory and fix up the current situation) if recreational drug cartels around the world were mentioned. Drugs played a bit part in the sixties. All that stuff from its part in the revolution to how to make it (or its constituent parts) - including all the information about south america/afganistan etc would be there for the picking. Do the US try and crack down on it straight away, try and fix any mistakes or just make the same ones as before? Does someone just go straight into production knowing the greed for it? Does everyone just go into production! Due to the schism of uptimers/downtimers drugs would seem to be a desirable commodity - probably by everyone. Uptimers still depressed about dislocation and downtimers needing escape from current events

NBlob mutters...

Posted September 23, 2016
JB mentioned at the arse end of FI that the OSS had reached out to Ho Chi Minh, if the west blundered into another was on drugs that'd be profoundly sad.

NBlob mutters...

Posted September 23, 2016
But, politics is the art of the compromise. Is it possible that the up timers political & communications Fu would be insufficient to offset their relatively small number as a % of the voting public.

FormerlyKnownAsSimon reckons...

Posted September 24, 2016
Gah. Right gonna have to do a refresh. I still think some enterprising dictator might take advantage and work on supply. Where there's money to be made . . .

damian mutters...

Posted September 27, 2016
Two-party politics is the conviction that all issues deconstruct to a continuum and that a compromise where the debate is balanced will be reached through some sort of Aristotelian moderation. But sometimes the arsehats are just arsehats and no matter how carefully you deal with them, you will always end up with shit on your hands. Doesn't mean you don't have to, but it does mean it's not a pretty job. Laws and sausages I guess.

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NBlob puts forth...

Posted September 23, 2016
Love it JB, like the old days where we battered ideas around till the moved through silly, past counterintuitive into Hmmm.

damian has opinions thus...

Posted September 23, 2016
Surely we've learned how to be more efficient and go straight to Hmmm?

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Jay ducks in to say...

Posted September 23, 2016
Wouldn't there be a run on keeping colonization of African nations a thing? You will need a lot of resources like rare earth metals, so the powers that be would want to hold on to territories like of, oh, say South African (hello diamonds).

It's a continent with major resources and little opposition... Maybee the proxy wars will be fought there instead of Korea/Vietnam/etc.

Dirk swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted September 23, 2016
Except for rubber, the Sovs have all the metals and minerals they need. The cia (via a front) even bought titanium from them in the sixties to make SR-71's.

No the Sov's always want access to a warm water port (ie one that doesn't freeze over in winter. Well with Crimea, south of France and northern Italy they have those. So targets would be Istanbul/Bosporus, Suez and Malta & Gibraltar.

On SR-71: would that be developed or are sats the preferred option?

John Petherick mutters...

Posted September 26, 2016
Satellites have predictable orbits and limited on-board fuel for maneuvering, so sub-orbital / high-altitude aircraft have advantages in being able to capture images of time-sensitive events. It's a niche (presumably) now filled by drones rather than manned aircraft.

I suspect that the SR-71 will be skipped unless some nation uses it as a development platform for single-stage-to-orbit.

More likely is a mixture of UpTime drone, battery and solar cell technology and good old-fashioned lighter-than-air technology. High-altitude blimps or rigid airships with solar cells on the upper surface, radar absorbing skin and internal maneuvering fans that can stay on station for weeks and transmit data using UpTime encryption. Probably not just visuals but also ELINT.

Murphy_of_Missouri is gonna tell you...

Posted September 27, 2016
Given the knowledge brought back, one could skip a lot of needless, wasteful development to focus on something more fruitful. That would mean we wouldn't see the development of aircraft like the XB-70.

Drones might be an option, but they would still need satcoms in order to provide real time control, no matter how advanced the drone was.

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Guy swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted September 24, 2016
I think Joe makes a good point about Los Angeles, London and Sydney being islands of 21st Century tolerance (or vice, depending on your point of view). Even today there's a noticeable gap between liberal London and many other parts of the UK. It would likely to much greater in the 1950s following the arrival of the Uptimers, and greater still between a hip and happening LA and small town America, where the local preachers would no doubt be calling for a Crusade.

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Guy ducks in to say...

Posted September 24, 2016
I think Joe makes a good point about Los Angeles, London and Sydney being islands of 21st Century tolerance (or vice, depending on your point of view). Even today there's a noticeable gap between liberal London and many other parts of the UK. It would likely to much greater in the 1950s following the arrival of the Uptimers, and greater still between a hip and happening LA and small town America, where the local preachers would no doubt be calling for a Crusade.

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jl ducks in to say...

Posted September 25, 2016
I see a 1950's America where a lot of big shocks and little changes add up to a world of difference.

First, though, let me try out this paragraph code thing to see if it works.

NBlob ducks in to say...

Posted October 1, 2016
Yep, like that

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jl mutters...

Posted September 25, 2016
Alright, have the paragraph code thing under control.

Yes, I certainly think there will be a large conservative backlash by people who are not exactly enamored with some of the cultural changes that the future brings (some fears would be reasonable, some not). However, some things (like effective contraception) will not be able to be withstood- with all the changes that will flow from that. Also, people in small town America are not necessarily the cultural cro-magnons some portray us to be, and people will roll with the changes with more equanimity than might otherwise be perceived as the case- especially with a yearly crop of conscripts processing into the newly integrated US military who will bring home the idea that minorities and women are not as inferior, etc. as some of their elders say.

I think for the average Joe that life will be an array of new consumer choices, medical advancements, and sometimes confusing juxtapositions of cultural and gender roles. Some things will happen slowly (like Alice maybe being a little less willing to accept the fact that her husband is lord and master of the house), other things will be fast (Little Louise saves up her allowance to buy a Soviet Workingman's Friend CD player and gets the most awesome recording of Back in Black).

What will be interesting is the acceleration of some trends (race relations and the tech society), and possibly the retardation of others (urban decay, reliance on the House of Saud)

As previously stated by others, the world will be awash in data pertaining to mineral resources- countries like the US, Holland, etc. will know they are sitting on oceans of hydrocarbons. At the same time, the technology to maximize the efficient use of said resources will be there, as well as solar, wind, etc. Who knows, maybe we would blaze a better path being forewarned and forearmed. People being people, though, it's much more likely that a path somewhere between wild incompetence, greed, and genius will be walked down.

That is, if the Soviets and their head maniac in chief doesn't destroy the world first. For that problem, we need to remember the most important fact- without security, there can be no liberty.

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jl is gonna tell you...

Posted September 25, 2016
And oh yes, very important, people know that wormhole manipulation and time travel are possible! Think about what the Soviets could do with that- with all of old Joe's ravings about "history reversing itself, the dialectic setting things right" etc, they surely have their best minds and resources working on the issue. Imagine a Soviet FTL ship, or Spetsnaz time travelers. Holy crap.

Turlogh Dubh O'Brien reckons...

Posted September 27, 2016
I am still of the opinion that Stalin's meddling causes the Disappearance :)

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jason asserts...

Posted September 25, 2016
I've been giving this too much thought (once again) and I am wondering about the psychological effect the time travellers and the glimpse into the future would have had. I can't help thinking about monstrous death cults emerging to avoid some of, what would be seen as, abominations happening on thr future. One look at the future of sport would probably set the KKK on a mission to destroy the planet.

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Stephen M. Stirling has opinions thus...

Posted September 25, 2016
Keep in mind the parable about the frog -- the one that boils to death because it doesn't notice the gradual increase in the heat of the water.

People not only get a glimpse of the future, but they now know that -time can be changed-.

In other words, they know what's coming... but they also know there's no reason they shouldn't change the outcome if they don't want it.

And in 1942, there would be a lot of people besides Stalin who wouldn't want it.

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Murphy_of_Missouri puts forth...

Posted September 25, 2016
I would think, in order for Kolhammer and crew to get the future they'd prefer, they would have to use The Quiet Room and other assets to engineer that future. That would mean having what is essentially a military organization meddling in social engineering in the civilian world.


Does that mean that Kolhammer ends up funneling money, resources, and assets into civil rights organizations? And does he have The Quiet Room running smear ops and targeted hits on folks like George Wallace? I'd think things would get pretty bloody pretty fast.

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Murphy_of_Missouri mutters...

Posted September 25, 2016
I would think, in order for Kolhammer and crew to get the future they'd prefer, they would have to use The Quiet Room and other assets to engineer that future. That would mean having what is essentially a military organization meddling in social engineering in the civilian world.


Does that mean that Kolhammer ends up funneling money, resources, and assets into civil rights organizations? And does he have The Quiet Room running smear ops and targeted hits on folks like George Wallace? I'd think things would get pretty bloody pretty fast.

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jason asserts...

Posted September 26, 2016
Okay JB, I've been patient and played nice and I understand the need to produce quality work but...

I am leaving for New York on Monday and I have planned to work through Rome Cairo and Paris during the wonderfully long flight. You can see the bug in the plan I am sure.

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Turlogh Dubh O'Brien has opinions thus...

Posted September 28, 2016
Would Kohlhammer and the Uptimers, having the knowledge of the US gov't doing studies and experiments without consent on soldiers and citizens, allow that? Yes, it would help fight the Sovs, but at what human cost?


I am talking specifically about stuff like Operation Top Hat, MKUltra, Operation Sea-Spray and the likes.

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MarkatVAVS puts forth...

Posted October 11, 2016
Brought this yesterday, and am looking forward to reading it, but first rereading the whole series again, just about finished Final Impact.(AOT great series and every time I read it I pick up more detail.)

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