Cheeseburger Gothic

A day without migraine - and foregrounding the background.

Posted May 25, 2009 by John Birmingham
Well made it thru a day in front of the screen without suddenly having the world fall apart in a pixelated mess, fifteen minutes prior to getting a meat axe in my head. Or feeling like it. Which is to say, I had no migraine.

Yay!

There were a couple of moments were I thought I might have been about to go down, but that's not unusual the day after. And yesterday, of course was the day after, and I fucking did go down with a second of the fuckers. Fuck them.

Anyway, back on deck now and writing like mad to catch up. I had been planning a massive writing weekend. 5-6 chapters. In the end, between the headaches, i got about 400 words done.

Just have to suck it up and punch harder this week.

Spent this evening editing a couple of my 'cowboy' arc chapters, which feature Miguel from WW. I don't even recall whether Mig' rated a POV chapter of his own in book one, or whether he was simply an ethical foil for Juilanne. But he's really come into his own in this book. I think his story arc might be my fave of all. It certainly generates some of the best lines and iconic imagery.

Miguel prodded his horse forward again and rode up next to the Agent.

He spoke in a low voice, but with great power.

“If I were you, I would be looking to make this as painless a leave-taking as possible, senor. If I were you, I would shut my mouth now, unless I wanted to die with my neck stretched and my insides hanging out over my belt, swinging in the air for the crows to pick.”

He casually drew the knife with which he had killed two men the previous evening, stropped it slowly on his jeans and gave the Road Agent his stone face.

...

"Out here" said Miguel, "Justice is a bullet."

...

Miguel hoisted his own rifle, his much loved Winchester and held it in front of the boy. “This gun has been leveled at five men, Orrin. They are all dead now. Do you understand? I have never pointed this gun at a man and failed to take his life.”

Anyway, enough farnarkling around. Back to it.

41 Responses to ‘A day without migraine - and foregrounding the background.’

Brian reckons...

Posted May 25, 2009
Been waiting for the ear shattering 'KABBOOM" as your head imploded. Jeez . . . .what do you take for pain relief?

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savo swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 25, 2009
Ol'M's last forever. I never get pain associated with them only the visual distortion. Firsttime was f**ken scary thought I'd had a stroke or sumpthin.

Don't think Miguel had a big part in WW but ...

NExt road trip after dead line?

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NBlob has opinions thus...

Posted May 25, 2009
*Stamping feet*

more farnarkling

more farnarkling

more farnarkling

more farnarkling

c'mon folks, don't leave me hanging like this

more farnarkling

more farnarkling

*softer*

more farnarkling

*trailing off*

more far har aah crap.

Good stuff JB, looking forward to some mesa & circling buzzards action.

Bummer about the migraines. Have you tried tincture of morphine or luadanum?

Post wave skillsets: Cowpoke?!

I guess real estate agents are redundant.

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Orin puts forth...

Posted May 25, 2009
What is a farnarkle?

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Lobes reckons...

Posted May 25, 2009
the fajoint on your fafinger. moral of the story dont fa with miguel

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HAVOCK would have you know...

Posted May 25, 2009
so ya been operaing on LOW RES!, just might need a JasJAM upgrade and all will be good JB....

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Orin puts forth...

Posted May 25, 2009
And why does Orin have too many R's?

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Chaz is gonna tell you...

Posted May 25, 2009
It could be worse, look whats happening to havock..ooops said too much!!!

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Matthew K would have you know...

Posted May 26, 2009
Were I one of Miguel's companions and he spoke to me like that I'd put a magazine into his back the first time he turned away from me.

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sparty would have you know...

Posted May 26, 2009
lovin this lonesome dove stuff!

Orin - you've just joined O'Neill (with 2 L's) company!

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Paul Nicholas Boylan swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 26, 2009
I love visiting this blog because it serves as a frequent reminder that my life has taken the correct path. I am a fairly good attorney, but I could never be a writer. I don't have the artistic integrity to write professionally. for example, if I were writing WW II, I would try to fill it with lines like this:

“Out here” said Miguel, “Justice is often mispronounced.”

I will keep my day job and leave the legitimate writing to professionals. John, I can't wait to read the sequel.

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John Birmingham mutters...

Posted May 26, 2009
'And why does Orin have too many R's? '

Different Orrin.

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lostatlunch is gonna tell you...

Posted May 26, 2009
Orrin... are you hard enough to take Miguel? I dont think today is a good day to die.

I could do with a bit more farnarking...

Can a Brissie local express a Muffin Basket to Mr. B... we need more farnarking... or a meat tray from Wagga.

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Orin reckons...

Posted May 26, 2009
Sounds like "Orrin" is a kid, so technically Miguel can point the gun at him and not take his life because his original statement is about "men".

If Orrin ever turns up here, it will be a geek-off at a pico parsec. No one is taking my title of Alpha-nerd!

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Lobes reckons...

Posted May 26, 2009
Or to give his full title, Ensign Orrin Crusher.

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Therbs mutters...

Posted May 26, 2009
Farnarkling is what it says it is - farnarkling. It was once a fictional sport invented by John Clarke ("And that's a magnificent arkle!")to satirise the theologising of sport, but really, its just farnarkling.

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Sweet Jane Says has opinions thus...

Posted May 26, 2009
Blah... No-one talks like that! Jesus... Google: Cowboy Poetry. Watch rodeos on ESPN. Randomly phone what's left of the giant spreads.

My grandfather had a big spread in Oklahoma, and he never talked like that. His hired help didn't talk like that. I've lived on his land until he died and split the land among his eight children, and none of them talked like that.

It's laughable.

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Sweet Jane Says has opinions thus...

Posted May 26, 2009
Check the writings of two Oklahomans for a taste of the West that was and the cowboys that barely scraped a living: Tony Hillerman and Louis L'Amour.

J.

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Sweet Jane Says mumbles...

Posted May 26, 2009
Seriously, Birmingham, it's horrible and insulting.

J.

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John Birmingham mutters...

Posted May 26, 2009
And yet it sells by the truckload. Go figure.

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NBlob swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 26, 2009
Sweet familiar stereotypes.

Where would we be without you?

You seem to have missed a point J, one of the standard (or readable) lit tropes is to take a mutually recognisable character & place him /her in an extraordinary situation. Without this Birmo'd spend pages & pages on character development & little or no A narrative, B explodey goodness or C international intrigue - which are kind of the point of his books.

Which you'd know.

If you read one.

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Trowzers mumbles...

Posted May 26, 2009
Of course, US television would *never* use a horribly stereotyped Australian character with a completely inaccurate accent!

Maybe you should consider it revenge :)

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Therbs would have you know...

Posted May 26, 2009
Since when does dialogue in fiction have to reflect real conversation? My guess is hardly ever. Sure, that would be fascinating stuff full of "Seriously, you know, I was like, wow dude, and he was like, you know, oh my god! And then he was you know going oh my god, like, you know, as if!"

I think I prefer "...swinging in the air for crows to pick." to "He was like, awesomely like whoa! You know?"

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DrYobbo puts forth...

Posted May 26, 2009
Farnarkling FTW. Aside from Roy and HG noone's captured the self-referential idol-worshiping idiocy of Strayan sports and sports media like John Clarke in that (and in the Games of course.)

(bowing and scraping) A thousand apologies sahib for the poor showing at Blunty today - manflu, moving hourse, bone in my trotter, and pretty much over the farnarkling story since it's all the NZ meeja talk about. Yeah I know, this is Sparta, but as far as my ancient history recollection goes being Spartan mainly involved leaving infants on hillsides to die of exposure and sodomising fellow barracks-buddies between sorties. Jeez where do I sign?

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Lobes puts forth...

Posted May 26, 2009
JB's namesake Billy at the Twelth Man made a pretty good attempt. Alas the humour has slowly diluted in the follow up series'.

Still, it changed the way I view Max Walker forever.

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Matthew K mutters...

Posted May 26, 2009
JB: "And yet it sells by the truckload. Go figure."

I know, it does all come down to the bottom line on the balance sheet in the end. But I have to admit it doesn't quite convince me either.

Not wanting to gang up on you or bring you down JB it's just I figured you'd rather hear it now than later.

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Robert asserts...

Posted May 27, 2009
Levi's Hand-Stropped Jeans?

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John Birmingham asserts...

Posted May 27, 2009
Matt, I wouldn't bother replying to SweatJane but I will for you. There are three things to remember about the extracts.

First, they're extracts, you're not seeing them in context, where Miguel's dialogue is just one set of lines amongst many. Dialogue is a great way of establishing and differentiating character, and thus fictional characters tend to have emphasized speech patterns in a way that real people don't. Read a taped interview or surveillance transcript if you can, then compare it to the dialogue in a movie, even a movie with 'naturalistic' dialogue such as Pulp Fiction. They're very different. Normal speech is unreadable.

This leads me to the 2nd point I'd make about Miguel. He's learned English as a second language, ie formally. He speech patterns will be much more formal because of that.

Finally, it's a genre novel. With a cowboy narrative. There is an element of homage paying but also gentle piss taking involved. Hence the line that opens that particular chapter, "You cain't do this mister. We ain't done nuthin' to deserve a hangin!"

Would anyone ever say that? In real life? Maybe. If they were an ill bred moron. In a Larry McMurtry novel? They just might. But in the TV adaptation of a Larry McMurtry novel, they almost certainly would. And that's the market in which I'm working.

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Matthew K mumbles...

Posted May 27, 2009
All true, especially the second language thing. I'm quite used to hearing English spoken as a second language and it is true that people speak differently to native speakers. I can often spot the best of them by the almost formal care with which they speak, but people often strike slightly the wrong tone. (I know I have in Spanish).

Then there's the difference between real life and fictional speech.

And I was indeed seeing it out of it's context.

I'll stop talking, finish this fine beer and go skim WW so I actually know what I'm talking about.

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Jorge ducks in to say...

Posted May 27, 2009
Somehow McMurtry makes it sound so natural and the characters never seem like caricatures. Your Miguel sounds like an R-rated Speedy Gonzales. Aim a little more for Cormac McCarthy. Part nuts and part mystical.

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Sweet Jane Says swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 27, 2009
I taught ENGLISH as a SECOND LANGUAGE to HISPANIC kids in NEW MEXICO. I travel exstensively in MEXICO, and I've never encountered someone that talks like Slim Pickens. Reference the works of Robert Rodríguez. Read a bit of Tony Hillerman and Louis L’Amour. Read a few excerpts from our Hispanic writers. But, you won't; you're content with tripe when you could be doing quality.

J.

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Sweet Jane Says mumbles...

Posted May 27, 2009
You're trying to make the character sound like the captain of the Firefly, aren't you? Jesus...

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lostatlunch ducks in to say...

Posted May 27, 2009
After Meryl Streep in Evil Angels there is NOTHING that an Australian can do to any American speech pattern that can compare to that infamy.

There is a troll under this bridge.

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Paul Nicholas Boylan reckons...

Posted May 27, 2009
Jane - first of all, Miguel doesn't sound a thing like the captain of the Firefly. But even if he did, what would be wrong with that? The character of Malcolm Reynolds is still the coolest of the cool and some of Joss Whedon best work. I try to talk like him all of the time. True, it is silly when I do it, but that isn't the point. The point is that trying to make a character sound like Malcolm wouldn't be a bad thing at all.

My wife just walked into my office and said "bacon flavored vodka..." and walked out.

I hate when she does that kind of thing.

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damian ducks in to say...

Posted May 27, 2009
I'm a big fan of Elmore Leonard, and probably wouldn't stumble into modern western genre writing without rereading his recent stuff in depth. Don't really know the genre well enough to do a survey, but I'm sure it wouldn't be onerous.

But then I don't have a deadline :)

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damian ducks in to say...

Posted May 27, 2009
Darkman, I always get this idea that there ought to be a brand of cheap and nasty port, called "Billy-goat Port", that comes in 2-litre flagons complete with oversized brown paper bag. It strikes me as the perfect offering for the sort of trolls one does in fact find under bridges in our age.

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Sweet Jane Says ducks in to say...

Posted May 27, 2009
Yes, yes... Someone invented bacon flavoured vodka. It's gruesome.

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Matthew K has opinions thus...

Posted May 27, 2009
Damian: "Elmore Leonard". Hell yes, good point. That is damn cool dialogue. The best ever maybe, I feel inspired to go out and buy one now.

J: Talking of striking the wrong tone, is English your mother tongue? ;-)

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Dick Shanarry asserts...

Posted May 28, 2009
"exstensively"

Shame they had to learn English from someone who spells like a 10 year old.

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Sweet Jane Says mutters...

Posted May 28, 2009
I do a damned fine job considering the scalping, cracked cranium, and amnesia that came with the broken neck. In addition, my kidneys were hemmoraging blood through my bladder last night. And, no - English wasn't my first language. My first language was a Southern dialect that I didn't abandon until 5th. grade.

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Sweet Jane Says ducks in to say...

Posted May 28, 2009
Hell, Birmingham, you were in California, Texas, and New York surrounded by Hispanics, Latinos, Mexicans, Cubanos, and Puerto Ricans, but you stuck with your peanut gallery and botched your research. Did you ever venture into the real America without your geeky goons? Whites are the minority; it wouldn't have been difficult to find Spanglish speakers. They're the ones that keep this country running.

J.

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Respond to 'A day without migraine - and foregrounding the background.'

A North American Federation.

Posted May 18, 2009 by John Birmingham
One my twittervolk who's reading WW asked about why nobody was talking to the remnant Canadians.

The Canucks do spook around a bit off stage, but he's right, you don't see them otherwise.

Same in book two, although we do hear of them in second discussion of the Treaty of Vancouver (one outcome of which is to bring Echelon into the open and formalise its relationship with with the rest of the Sec/Intel community).

But, what chance the surving Candians would consider federating, even loosely with the surviving US states?

65 Responses to ‘A North American Federation.’

NBlob puts forth...

Posted May 18, 2009
Can who?

Can a da? Hmm Googling...

Oh them. The EnZed of the North Pacific - only good for skiing & occasional "human interest" stories. Like "Man freezes bollocks to car door."

As for confederation - I strongly doubt they'd ever formally join the union, but a short term alliance'd be possible- if an external threat presents.

We discussed in a previous thread the difficulty for re-colonists or baddies crossing Mexico. I reckon Canada will probably be the avenue of choice eh.

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Brian has opinions thus...

Posted May 18, 2009
Good question. What's the population like on the Canadian West Coast? Seems a silly question but do they have more in common with the CONUS West Coast in their values and they way they think than say with the Atlantic Coastal provinces?

If that is a yes. Then they'd be thinking how they're wedged between Seattle and ALaska and the problems they'd have in attracting population. They'd be thinking about wanting to be under the US security umbrella.

There's a probability that they'd may want some special status - perhaps a 'protectorate'. Could be a useful plot device. Hmm . . .

The borders unpoliceable - people are going to be going back and fourth taking what they want. If an arguement could be put that a North American security Pact is in everyones interest?

The thinking is a bit fractured. But its there to be knocked down or into shape. Have at it.

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Paul Nicholas Boylan puts forth...

Posted May 18, 2009
They would do it in a heartbeat. What Canadian hasn't really, deep down, wanted to be a citizen of the United States, eh?

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Paul Nicholas Boylan asserts...

Posted May 18, 2009
Except for those assholes in Banff, of course.

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lostatlunch has opinions thus...

Posted May 18, 2009
PNB.. only in the sense that many Americans wish they were a lot more Candian.

My experience with Seattle residents would be more comfortable in Vancover than Houston.

Apart from the massive american military, there seems to be little left of the American people.

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yankeedog ducks in to say...

Posted May 18, 2009
They might have to simply to survive. The part of Canada (save Edmonton and Vancouver) is pretty lightly populated, but it has a lot of resources. I'd have to think they'd be on some nation's 'Grab' list. With the natural resources available, it's conceivable that they could have the slightly stronger economy in a North American Federation.

I'm not sure what is left of the Canadian military other than the naval bases around Vancouver. Most of the Canadian Forces barracks and airbases are well inside the Dead Zone.

If cultural differences could be put aside, it could be a viable national entity.

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Paul Nicholas Boylan swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 18, 2009
All kidding aside (which, for me, is an important concession and a sign that I might be drunk) the Arctic Ocean is rapidly becoming a viable commercial shipping route and a resource-rich prize that is worth fighting for. The surviving Canadian's might consider federating with what is left of the United States in exchange for the use of US naval power (spread all over the world and so surprisingly robust after the Wave) to secure Canadian interests in dominating the Arctic.

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Chaz would have you know...

Posted May 18, 2009
Much as I hatre to admit it but PB is right about about the artctic rights issue. The main fly in the ointment would of course be Les Quebecois. HMMM now thats a thought would they really want to get closer to france now thats it's reliving 'the terror'?

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Big Bad Al swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 18, 2009
At least they wouldn't have to worry about the French Canadians.

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damian is gonna tell you...

Posted May 18, 2009
Isn't Vancouver basically a suburb of Seattle anyway?

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HAVOCK would have you know...

Posted May 18, 2009
small, Q, just what Canadian units were present for the jump off, of D storm, I suspect a lot, plus gear, not completely screwed Mil wise i suspect. Hmm french connection.....I see an issue,

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damian mutters...

Posted May 18, 2009
Oh and to PNB: yes and yes. With rising sea levels and the melting of the arctic, the world's busiest shipping routes will be north of Canada and Russia. This is already happening in our timeline, and shipping companies are making plans around it. Add in the greenhouse outcomes of the incineration of mainland US industry, and I can only see this accelerating. Though the other issues would indicate a decline in total shipping, of course.

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Patricia puts forth...

Posted May 18, 2009
Ok. Obviously nobodyhere has asked a Canadian. Having lived among them Canucks for a year, and having a mother who grew up in Oh Canadar, I would say: ZILCH. Canada despises the US for being belligerent, arrogant, racist, homophobic and generally ignorant of and completely oblivious to the interests of other countries. Unless your novel includes a president of Obama's ilk, I reckon there is NO chance in HELL JB. None.

Especially the Pacific Northwest.

Although they resent Quebeckers for receiving most of the government subsidies while having only 25% of the population and for being linguistic nazis, they are Canucks through and through.

Their value systems include true equality for everyone. A real fair go. Their army only ever goes into peacekeeping mode. They oppose most militarism. They would probably sick every fucking grizzly on their side of the border on any troops. Although the population of BC is roughly 2 or 3 million max, they are used to roughing it. One of the biggest past times in Vancouver is to run up Grouse Mountain in summer. And we're not talking a measly small mountain. Grouse has enough elevation for snow in winter. They will go camping in the pouring rain. They will skate in rain and ice. Although they have nothing against their cousins in the northernmost states, they hate US militarism. Forget about it.

No chance at all. Just read anything written by any of their previous prime ministers from Trudeau onwards.

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Patricia reckons...

Posted May 18, 2009
Btw - guys - i must thank you for the completely oblivious comments to the feelings of Canucks. You just roused me out of a depressed stupor. Love yas.

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lostatlunch would have you know...

Posted May 18, 2009
The UK.. and the cheese eating surrender monkeys may be keen to "help resettle" the land of Eh. and even use their military to make it happen... Kipper may be a little busy to make any argument about anything that is not US territory.

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lostatlunch would have you know...

Posted May 18, 2009
The UK.. and the cheese eating surrender monkeys may be keen to "help resettle" the land of Eh. and even use their military to make it happen... Kipper may be a little busy to make any argument about anything that is not US territory. I would be mindful, lots of people are now planning a little reshaping of the geo-political globe.

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Paul Nicholas Boylan asserts...

Posted May 18, 2009
Patricia - why is it always about you?

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sibeen reckons...

Posted May 18, 2009
The main fly in the ointment would of course be Les Quebecois.

The fly in the ointment has gone *poof* with the USA and large parts of Cananda.

I've stated before in other threads that I believe there would be an anschluss between the USA and what's left of the Canadian population.

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TJX swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 18, 2009
QUOTE - "Their army only ever goes into peacekeeping mode."

I suggest you do some research on this because Canada is one of the few NATO members doing any actual FIGHTING in Afghanistan. And Trudeau is ancient f*kin history my friend. If you had'nt noticed, Canada has a CONSERVATIVE government that's actually spending money on the military. We just recently bought new Leopard 2A6 tanks which is just as good, if not better than American Abrams tanks.

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Naut would have you know...

Posted May 18, 2009
I dunno Patricia, I have met plenty of Canadians (my best mate is Canadian) that aren't that anti-American and plenty that fit your description. They are very proud of their links with the US and refer to themselves as North Americans more often than Canadians.

That said, I am not sure even the pro-US one would go for Federation except in the loosest terms.

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Brian reckons...

Posted May 18, 2009
Patricia - I did touch on that question. Still . .is the West Coast on Canuck land going to have more in common culturally with West Coast US than with the rest of Canuckland? I'm thinking of the barnies Californians have with East Coasters here.

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HAVOCK mutters...

Posted May 18, 2009
BIG Q. IS Echelon...Left or Right!..sorry..lol. shoulda called them Arrow head.

Actually, another Q. How long and what OTHER NAMES, did you come up with before you settled on echelon!

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Moko mutters...

Posted May 18, 2009
I dunno. I think it'll be a bit like the Kiwi's signing up with the Ockers. Can't see it happening for anything other than survival. Even then it'll only to consolidate forces. I think they'd keep their idea of a government though. That's something everyone is passionate about in their own little corner of the world.

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NBlob has opinions thus...

Posted May 18, 2009
Echelon has been around for a while. I remember one of my more ahh gullible friends telling me about it 4 or 5 years ago.

"Duude, It's like this threat scanning software running on multiple massive supercomputers. It can read every email & listen to every phone call in real-time. It's listening for key words and it'll tag the call as a threat if it gets a ping. Then it'll, like, check who the call is from & to, collate all your Tax records, bank records & contracts, profile you and spit out a risk assessment. The only way we can beat it is if we all say "Bomb Whitehouse" once in every phone conversation & every Email. The system would get so many positives that it'll fall over."

Same dude would take the battery out of his mobile everytime we discussed something less than %100 legal. He was sure "They" could remotely turn the phone on without any change to the LCD display & listen in to any conversations made within pickup range of the phone's mic. This was apparantly why "They" made us go over to the digital network.

Hmm, I haven't seen him in a while.

Hello, someones @ the door.

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HAVOCK swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 18, 2009
yeah yeah..NBOB.....my MAN...Bourne..echelon, hmmm. But thats software. I reckon JB would have mulled that one over, excuse the phrase, but I'll bet he nearly went with another code name for the mob

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Chaz swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 18, 2009
H. echelon is more than software it's a network.

Sibeen, sorry I thought quebec miissed the wave but then it's been a while since I looked at the map. mea culpa

Nbob, mate you made me laugh!

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Chaz is gonna tell you...

Posted May 18, 2009
Oh and echelon is run by lovely people, lovely lovely people.

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Guy reckons...

Posted May 18, 2009
I have no doubt that the remaining Canadians would want to rebuild their country just as much as the remaining citizens of the USA would wish to rebuild theirs. Nonetheless, I would also expect extremely close co-operation between the two rump states post-Wave. USA and Canada are already close NATO allies and there are no really serious points of disagreement. Canadians and Americans are both proud of their countries and values and while they have a huge amount in common, there is enough of a difference to ensure that the states would remain seperate. Of course the removal of the French Canadians would make matters much easier...

Also remember that the UK is a close ally of both countries, although we are inevitably closer in cultural terms to the Canadians. Brits and Cannucks both have the Queen as the Head of State, we both have a Parliamentary system of government with a Prime Minister as Head of Government rather than a President etc. The UK would be just as supportive of the Canadians as we would be of the US. I believe a strong US-Canadian-British alliance would emerge, dedicated to protecting the remnants of the US and Canada and starting to rebuild North America. It would be highly likely that there would be considerable involvement from Australia and New Zealand as well - all the Echelon states in other words.

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Lobes puts forth...

Posted May 18, 2009
Chaz, IIRC the wave took out everything East of about Central BC.

I had the same problem before and someone (Tarl?) kindly put up a map link (that i now lost). I would suggest that JB puts a link to an image of the map here or at the miniburger so we're not continually playing the guessing game.

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savo reckons...

Posted May 18, 2009
The Canadian US amalgamation has been talked about before. I'm sure that the consensus was that there simply weren't enough Canucks to make a difference, sure Vancouver and a couple of the snow fields (which would be populated mainly by Aussies) but pretty much a very empty country. Don't know if they were part of the coalition of the willing so I doubt much in the way of either industry or military. Mind you what ever Canadians survived, they will be celebrating the loss of the French part.

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savo is gonna tell you...

Posted May 18, 2009
plenty of room at the mini can whoever it was send the map to birmoverse at yahoo dot com dot au.

ta

savo

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Matthew K mutters...

Posted May 18, 2009
So what with Alaska, Hawaii, plus what Canadian forces were in the Gulf and what percentage of North America are the (west coast) Canadians now?

Because their numbers will determine how much clout they have in the inevitable alliance/confederation. As has been pointed out they would need to stick close with the remnants of the US for survival.

Oh, and there used to be Canadian forces based in the Black Forest in Germany, on the French-German border. Dunno if they were still there at the time of the wave.

Those Canadians I have met were all "North Americans" and got ticked off if people forgot Canada is part of that continent.

I've found Canadians to be more European in their attitudes, but unlike Europeans they are intimately familiar with the US and so don't spew out a lot of the crap that some Euros talk on the subject.

I remember one baiting a stupid German dreadlock, "Yes I am American. No, I never said I was from the USA".

I'd like to think that we in the UK would defend Canadian (and US) territory but what with the scale of the place and the size of our forces... Maybe if we joined up the rest of the EU, Scandinavia and ANZAC.

We'd need to do something just to make sure it wasn't in the wrong hands.

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HAVOCK has opinions thus...

Posted May 18, 2009
Ahhh, so Can anybody give me anything more than WILD speculation about echelon, the fact its perceived, believed and might or might not be real, its software, possibly a series of linked gather stations, A FULLY OPERATIONAL, manned covert surv network with operatives.

OK, so JB took it a step further cool I can live with that.

But I noted that Wiki and the likes mentions DSD, but not the glass house at Vic barracks, the basement so to speak, the big arse puters down there and WHAT THE are used for. the fact that the people who happen to work in their, are so bloody tight lipped about what they do its not funny, I happen to know a couple BTW. Spook central for signit and christ knows what else.hmmmm. Wilde speculation..But its Fiction so I guess I can live with the whole ensemble.

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Matthew K has opinions thus...

Posted May 18, 2009
I know is that lining my hat with bacofoil works...

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Patricia ducks in to say...

Posted May 18, 2009
Paul...didn't you know? I'm the centre of your universe. ;p

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fishbowlnz would have you know...

Posted May 18, 2009
I can't imagine anything like federation, sure close cooperation, shared resources, border security, , shared police patrols maybe but formal sharing / ceding of sovereignty nope… I think the Canadians are like the Kiwis in this respect – help the neighbours but messing with flags and who gets to run the show, no way, not for decades.

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NBlob mutters...

Posted May 18, 2009
Havoc, I think you got it in one. SigInt.

Who's who in the zoo, who does who know, what skills, info or material might be shared. Then big fat gobs of risk assessments.

I have often wondered about where the Public Service meets National Security.

Four guys sitting around with flip chart & pens discussing prevention of & countermeasures for an aerosolised chemical weapon attack at Flemington on Melbourne Cup day. They then stop at 10:30 for a cuppa, @ 14:15 Larry knocks off to pick up his kids and there's 20 minutes of horsesh!t paperwork to get a new pen.

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Paul Nicholas Boylan would have you know...

Posted May 18, 2009
Patricia - Even though that is undoubtedly true, I still resent the fact that it is always about you.

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El Coqui mutters...

Posted May 18, 2009
Echelon is part of the deep space surveillance network of the USAF Planetary Defense Command (The Real Stargate), of course.

:)

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Paul Nicholas Boylan is gonna tell you...

Posted May 19, 2009
Once again, I am compelled to abandon frivolity and opine sincerely (a sure sign that I am in the midst of a difficult personal period of my life): I can't see anything but a political/military/economic alliance of what is left of the US and Canada. The current alliance is hegemonic in nature, but, post-wave, there are just too many mutual political, military and economic benefits supporting an alliance to seriously argue that any pre-wave anti-US sentiment or illusions of Canadian independence would get in the way of a pragmatic decision to work together very closely.

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Guy puts forth...

Posted May 19, 2009
Never underestimate the emotional attachment to a flag and other symbols of statehood Paul. Doubtless the remnants of the US and Canada would cooperate more closely than ever before but they would never abandon their identities - which, after all, is just about all they have left. It may not be entirely pragmatic, but it is very human.

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Paul Nicholas Boylan asserts...

Posted May 19, 2009
Guy - Hunger knows no morality, or sentiment. When the going gets tough, the tough take over and suppress idealists.

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Paul Nicholas Boylan reckons...

Posted May 19, 2009
Not to say the Canadians would not be bargaining hard. Canada has been under the US boot for quite some time (anyone who argues otherwise is a moron). The post-Wave arrangement will be more of a partnership of mutual convenience and profit. I don't expect either the US or Canada or any other state joining such an alliance to give up their prior national and cultural identity any more than Poland stopped being Polish when it joined Nato.

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Allan mutters...

Posted May 19, 2009
I tend to agree with the partnership idea, rather than a Union. In times of crisis, national identity is often one of those things people turn to, a rock solid foundation on which to stand when everything else is crumbling around them.

I for one cannot imagine any condition under which I would support the absorption of Australia into any entity in which we did not retain all that we are as a nation, especially sovereignty.

And all joking aside, I think we have to assume most Canadians are as patriotic as most Australians.

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mckinneytexas asserts...

Posted May 19, 2009
Paul is generally right, Canada could and probably would form some kind of pact with the US. It might be an alliance, statehood, or whatever, and it could be permanent or or for a stated period of time, or it could be a modified NATO with the remaining US forces having basing rights in Canada. However, I don't agree that Canada has been under our boot, anymore than Mexico has, so I guess I am a moron who agrees with Paul's main point.

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Paul Nicholas Boylan would have you know...

Posted May 19, 2009
Okay, so I overstated the "moron" aspect of any divergent opinion re: US Hegemony in North America. But I have to admit, I am likely to label anyone else (other than you, Chaz, Yobbo and Murph) in a similar fashion.

And, perhaps (although this is not a concession) the phrase "under the boot" was a bit extreme. Nevertheless, the US is a classic hegemon in North America with Canada and Mexico subject to US political, economic and military dominance.

The greater point is that such hegemony would no longer be in affect post-Wave, which means any post-Wave cooperation between Canada and the US - although inevitable - would likely be based on bilateral expectations unlike what currently exists with Canada no longer subject to US dominance to current degree.

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Boscolamb asserts...

Posted May 19, 2009
Canadian independence?!

I'm sure we could alter the Pledge of Allegiance with the following:

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the Consolidated States of America, and to the rump Republic for which it now stands, where Strength is irrelevant, and resistance is futile. We wish to improve ourselves. We will add your resources - biological, and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service ours, with one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for most."

Canucks, welcome to second class citizenship!

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TJX puts forth...

Posted May 19, 2009
QUOTE - "I’ve found Canadians to be more European in their attitudes"

*CRINGES at that thought.

I'm Canadian, and I don't consider myself "Euro" in ANY way, shape, or form!

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Paul Nicholas Boylan ducks in to say...

Posted May 19, 2009
Boscolamb - "Rump Republic" eh? Why don't you just accuse all us US Citizens of being gay and be done with it? "Rump Republic" indeed. I may thank God daily that my son isn't gay (for perfectly acceptable reasons) but I am proud of my support for gay rights - including gay marriage and, its necessary and inevitable counterpart: gay divorce (I practice family law here in California and I am looking forward to the extra business). All of you so-called "Canadians" are so far right of center it isn't even funny.

Don't even get me started on those lousy Australians...

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Matthew K puts forth...

Posted May 19, 2009
TJX, re:“I’ve found Canadians to be MORE European in their attitudes”

That's as compared to US citizens. I did not say Canadians were Europeans only that they are socially closer to some Euros than their friends south of the border.

OK? We cool?

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mckinneytexas swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 19, 2009
The remaining population of Canada is in the 2-3mm range at most--not an insubstantial number in the post wave world. Since I've long thought that a US/Aus/NZ/UK confederation of some sort was in the offing, I always assumed Canada would be part of the mix.

A slightly related issue would be whether the US would lay claim to the remainder of Mexico.

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HAVOCK is gonna tell you...

Posted May 19, 2009
Mckin, Hell yes I say. Kick the bastards when they are down, expand, grab, take and keep

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Dan ducks in to say...

Posted May 19, 2009
I live in Toronto, so probably I would be gone in this book's reality with the rest of the US.

About the subject at hand - I am not sure how well it will work a federated Canada with the US rump, bu the chances may be better than what was previously argued in this thread. There are two factors which were not taken into account by anyone:

1. Immigrants - Canada imports about 200k people per year and 80% go to the five major urban centers in Canada - Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal, Calgary and Ottawa. Vancouver has a fairly big immigrant community. These immigrants are quite friendly to the US and they may become a driving force behind a federalization movement.

2. Canada does not have a big army to start with, and most of it is in Ontario and Quebec - so in the book is gone. What no one said, but it is fairly well known in Canada is that we can spend lots of money on healthcare and other nice things we have because we spend a ridiculously low amount on defense. Exactly because we are under the US security umbrella. A US mostly gone may really scare a lot of people into action, so, again, the idea of a union may become more atractive than it is now.

And third idea, which was mentioned before but I think reinforces the arguments for a US-Canada union:

3. There is a difference between western Canada and the rest of the country. The westerners are much more friendlier to the US than rest, especially the Quebeckers which now have much more weight within the Canadian federation than they should.

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mckinneytexas mutters...

Posted May 19, 2009
Havock, you don't think we wouldn't be doing folks a favor by giving them good government and imparting the benefits of crop rotation and close-order drill?

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Murphy mutters...

Posted May 19, 2009
Worth pointing out that the US and Canada have strong defense and trade ties already. I suspect those ties would become stronger in the chaotic post wave security environment.

Writing from his very brief vacation location,

Murph

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Matthew K would have you know...

Posted May 19, 2009
mckinneytexas: "The remaining population of Canada is in the 2-3mm range"

What, they've been shrunk by the Wave? that's microscopic dude!

"Since I’ve long thought that a US/Aus/NZ/UK confederation of some sort was in the offing,"

Cool, but Britain would tend to bring along the rest of the EU. There's already NATO.

Dan: "Canada does not have a big army to start with, and most of it is in Ontario and Quebec - so in the book is gone."

But what about forces in the Gulf (did you guys take part?) or Afghanistan?

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NukemHill is gonna tell you...

Posted May 20, 2009
Lovin' how the U.S. of A. haters are trying to show how sophisticated they are. Hey, how about stickin' to the subject matter and giving some legitimate reasons for and against various possible forms of Federation? Venting your spleen doesn't count.

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Nightwyrm reckons...

Posted May 20, 2009
When I originally posted the question to John, my thoughts were more about general survival rather than if both countries could put any emnities aside.

In the book, there are major food issues amongst the American remnants. What's left of Canada (namely the remaining part of Alberta) is rich in farmland as well as crude oil. On top of that, British Columbia has good hunting and fishing. I think that, in order to keep Washington and Hawaii fed, the Americans would have to make some deal with Canada. On top of this, I'd think that scientists from both sides of the border would be collaborating to understand the Wave.

The US and Canadian political philosophies would probably be to disparate for a Federation to be created (plus the issue of national identity/pride). However, it would make sense for the survivors to form a strategic alliance for basic survival and trading.

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Nightwyrm ducks in to say...

Posted May 20, 2009
@mckinneytexas

"Since I’ve long thought that a US/Aus/NZ/UK confederation of some sort was in the offing, I always assumed Canada would be part of the mix."

Why would you think Aus and NZ would confederate with US and UK? We don't even want to confederate together.

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mckinneytexas would have you know...

Posted May 21, 2009
Nightwyrm--different set of dynamics. the point of WW is that, if the US is around as a counterweight to offset other hegemonic interests, not to mention the essential conduit for most food, technology and commerce, things go to shit pretty quickly. Aus/NZ won't confederate today, just like Canada and the US won't confederate. Change the circumstances and you change the thought process.

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Nick Blue reckons...

Posted May 21, 2009
Definitely federation. But it does depend upon how much Britain is involved in the recolonisation efforts.

I think that you need to look at the facts on the ground. Once the wave lifts, in the US/Canada you have 5 functioning States/Provinces/Territories with substantial populations (Alaska, Washington, Hawaii, British Columbia and Puerto Rico), the northern territories (Yukon, Nunavut) plus US territories in the pacific. You have sparsley populated rumps of States/Provinces (bits of Alberta, maybe Quebec, maybe Ontario, maybe Oregon). You then have a massive central zone that is depopulated but suitable for colonisation.

There are two drivers - the current situation and the future colonisation. As far as British Columbia is concerned, the people are culturally almost the same as those in Washington State (which is quite a blue State). They are in the way between Alaska and Washington and accessible by sea from Hawaii. There is no pressing political reason for them not to federate - life would be pretty much the same, plus they get access to the US defense and resources. Economically they would be (after a year of the wave) almost completely merged into a single Cascadian economy.

Looking at the colonisation effort. BC cannot effectively colonise the Atlantic States. They are too small and don't have the power on their own to project force over that distance. Sure, they can fix Alberta up pretty quickly, probably Saskatchewan too within a decade. But the Atlantic is too big a step. In the US though, they don't need to expand as much force on their own. The US military can do that and give people enough time to properly colonise the centre and East of the continent.

Likewise if you are coming in from overseas to colonise North America, are you really going to care whether you end up in the US or Canada? In fact you might prefer to be in the US.

The only point I can think of, is if Britain leads or has a big role in the colonisation effort - they might want to retain a Canada as a dependent nation. They might think that a combined US of North America will get too big and powerful too quickly. On the other hand, maybe it is an opportunity to rebuild the US more as Britain wants. In which case a United States of North America still makes sense. Britain certainly has surplus population to spare for colonisation.

Personally, I'd see a continuing US admitting BC and Puerto Rico as States (although the position of Puerto Rico been's discused elsewhere), Yukon and Nunavut as territories and claiming all territory in North America north of Mexico and contracting with Britain, Australia and NZ to assist in the recolonisation effort - with Britain being given some form of special licence to occupy the Atlantic Coast for the purpose of cleaning up the territory and colonisation. That ensures that no other European power gets any big ideas. The US then establishes new territories covering each existing State or Province. For most of them they would exist on paper only at first, but California, Oregon and Alberta certainly could be brought up-to Statehood within 5 years just using the existing US population and some new settlers from Australia/NZ.

Mexico is more difficult and would depend upon how much of a functioning government remained in the rump area. Would the new US really allow anyone to colonise the border regions, or would they quickly move into occupy Baja California and the Northern bits of Mexico - just to stop China or Venezuela for causing trouble there?

Other questions - would Aus/NZ join a confederation? Probably not at first, but would contribute population to the colonisation effort. What is Britain's position now that the EU/Nato is likely to be gone. A US/Canada/Aus/NZ/Britain alliance post-wave has about 100 million people and would still be a world power on par with Russia, at least.

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El Coqui puts forth...

Posted May 23, 2009
Well Puerto Rico had also "surplus" population between islanders and refugees with high unemployment rate and may look to Florida as a good destination. The US government may encouraged this as a way to start securing the southern borders against incursions from Venezuela or the attempted islamic landing in Fish Guts.

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Dan asserts...

Posted May 24, 2009
Matt: the total canadian army headcount is about ~55k. In the first Gulf War about 4500 soldiers were deployed under Operation Friction. Not sure if these can be used to secure the east coast...

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Dan would have you know...

Posted May 25, 2009
Correction: Operation Friction had a peak deployment of 2,700. Quote from wikipedia:

"Personnel were primarily attached to four units in the Persian Gulf region:

Canadian Task Group at sea;

the Canadian Air Task Group in Doha, Quatar;

the Joint Headquarters, Canadian Forces Middle East, in Manamah, Bahrain;

First Canadian Field Hospital at Al-Qaysumah"

It does not look to me like many ground troops to me...

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Dan swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 25, 2009
Oops, Operation Friction was in the Gulf War. Do not know where my head was. In march 2003 there was a canadian deployment in Afghanistan.

There were 5 frigates deployed in the far east in march: HMCS Montreal, HMCS Winnipeg, HMCS Regina, HMCS Iroquois, HMCS Fredericton.

Unfortunately for the ground troops there is a window between two major deployments, the first one under operation Apollo ending in july 2002 and the next one under operation Athen, wit the troop deployments beginning in august 2003. In march 2003 there were just not too many ground canadian troops in Afghanistan.

I did not figure out how many canadian trops were deployed around the world with NATO in march 2003.

Very interesting page hear with the strength of the canadian armed forces: http://www.canadaka.net/content/page/115-canadian-forces. There is one Mechnized Brigade Group in Edmonton, Alberta.

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Respond to 'A North American Federation.'

Pepsi Challenge. London after the Wave.

Posted May 8, 2009 by John Birmingham
I've just driven Caitlin to London to begin her search for...

Well you'll have to wait to find out.

But London has changed.

I've been watching Children of Men with the voice over on, to get some ideas for how I might fashion a (sort of) post apocalypse City, but thought I might throw out a line here as well.

I'll give you  some tips. Very little private transport. Lots of rationing. High security presence on the streets. The south Asian population has been either ghettoised or deported. You can't run a business without the requisite forms from the Ministry of Resources. And even then it's pretty hard.

Think global financial crisis raised to the power of ten, and throw in the aftermath of race war.

Tories are back in power too.

100 Responses to ‘Pepsi Challenge. London after the Wave.’

NBlob has opinions thus...

Posted May 8, 2009
hmm

Good thinks for 03:00.

Will get back to you

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HAVOCK mutters...

Posted May 8, 2009
yeah, let me digest this a tad.

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Brian is gonna tell you...

Posted May 8, 2009
Where's the Royal familly? Can someone shoot Camilla? Can we posit Irish terrorists with strange francophile connections? Can we blow up the Chunnel? Where's the Australian Test team during all this?

The thought of refo camps on various sporting fields makes me happy.

I'll get back to you. Tweet conference.

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sparty is gonna tell you...

Posted May 8, 2009
Well you have south London sink estates – which would have all sorts of conflicts once the shackles were off,bit like Judge Dredd block wars – black gangs v black gangs or hoodies v black gangs or big anti asian violence (ie Muslim not the US definition) Chavs becoming an almost clockwork orange type force. Any or all of those combinations of conflicts could break out. I wouldn’t play the race angle up too much – focus more on just disperate communites having conflict that may or may not be different colours.

I’d push the whole “few imports” angle- particulary from the EU and would be tempted to have the Uk lean again on its commonwealth partners (OZ , New Zealand etc). Rationing but would people sit back and accept like during the war or has the nature of population changed.

Does London implode and government relocates or does the enw government drain resources from the rest of the country to prop London up? How does that effect Scotland and Northern Ireland both of whom have some sort of Devolution. Hard to imagine the idealistic side of the IRA (Adams rather than McGuiness not making a play for “total” victory).

JG Ballard wrote a great book about middle class uprising (Milllenium people I think). With a crewed economy what does the HUGE white collar population do.

Fear of the wave – mass migration from London?

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sparty reckons...

Posted May 8, 2009
and unless there is a f**D up nuclear winter it does not snow in August:-)

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Naut swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 8, 2009
There would be a great anti-establishment underground music scene.

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DrYobbo would have you know...

Posted May 8, 2009
Sounds like a complete fkn shithole. Pretty much as now then.

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Brian swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 8, 2009
Here's one. Remember Hurricamne Katrina and the Superdrome(whatever) - posit the Millenium Stadium being used in such a fashion. Refo camp or deportee camp.

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HAVOCK swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 8, 2009
Themes would be full of floating humpies

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sparty puts forth...

Posted May 8, 2009
I can imagine army camp set up in Hyde Park etc (bit like having AA guns there during WW2), smuggling (people and stuff) out at Graves end etc with the Thames playing a much bigger role. Set pieces not at touristy iconic places but at old industrial places, the abandoned grounds of battersea powerstation, ruins / rebuiling of wembley - locatiosn such as Lords cricket ground repurposed. Again V for vendetta (movie rather than the actual comic) good source for inspiration.

I’m not a huge fan of the new doctor who but one ep “turn left” delat with an alternate Britain where the Doctor wasn’t around to save everyone- and captured a good post apocalyptic feel –subtle rather than being too dramatic.

Surburbs –do they thrive or go under – Guildford hoodies looting London or other way round?

And the biggie – quite a few guns around but in the hands of ,much narrower groups than in the States and might be highly prized.

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Lobes asserts...

Posted May 8, 2009
Absolutely what Dr Yobbo said. Having lived in London I kept waiting for your departure point about how this London is so different.

It never came.

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Lobes would have you know...

Posted May 8, 2009
Squats would be huge.

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sparty mutters...

Posted May 8, 2009
oh and Ken Livingston would still be mayor(he ordered a special supply of tamiflu to keep london infrastrucure going a few years back - and the new Mayor Boris Johnson has just "given" it to central government)and I can imagine him making a bid for independant power (cicl wra without the guns)now that radical politics (ie socialism) might be back on the agenda...

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sparty mumbles...

Posted May 8, 2009
and feeling of London (via Heathrow) of being gateway to the States?

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Brian mumbles...

Posted May 8, 2009
Hmm . . . Chunnel. Nice way of getting rid of lots of people if you hold both ends. Intriguing . . .probably impractical.

No decent curry joints left in England.

FIFA would be done for.

Lots of empty Council housing.

Quite a few MP's would be gone because of their background. Red Ken would be in porridge. Lady Thatcher would have a significant post.

Amnesty International and Oxfam?

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sparty would have you know...

Posted May 8, 2009
nah Ken would hold up like the last days of the reich in the Eagles nest and i reackon if Lady Thatcher came out of hiding someone would take a pot shot at her.

PS Gordon Browns nazi photo shoot was hilarious

http://tinyurl.com/cwst28

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John Birmingham mutters...

Posted May 8, 2009
Keep it comin ppl. It's all good.

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John Birmingham reckons...

Posted May 8, 2009
Sparty, of the south asian popn, what's the hindu/muslim breakdown? And is there much meshing of those communities?

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mckinneytexas mutters...

Posted May 8, 2009
I'm not clear on whether what seems like martial law is sitting well with folks or not? Seems like, if it is, by and large, the room for an underground economy, etc. is fairly thin. I don't get why would government not want new businesses starting up. That seems counter intuitive.

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Brian has opinions thus...

Posted May 8, 2009
Hmm . . .bit dubious about GB being sealed - as in an Iron curtain type operation. The RN isn't what it was. I see leakage from the Irish Sea and Scotland. The Channel has a mind boggling traffic pattern. Then there are all the deep sea trawlers and the like. Fuel will be a problem. Likewise food.

London is unsealable. Its huge. Internal security can't be met with the standing forces. Britain is at the end of its tether trying to do Afghanistan and Iraq in the present day.

The current GFC highlights the financial meltdown in The City - expect a severe depressio . . . .ooops . . . .market correction. Deflation . . . .bad deflation.

There will be thousands if not tens of thousands of foreigners, displaced persons, stateless types ie Seppo's, Mexicans, Australians, Kiwi's . .. . .even French within Britains borders.

More as I think on it . . .

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sparty mumbles...

Posted May 8, 2009
Well brick lane way (east end) you can get agro between Bangdeshis and Indians (Hindus). Although those communities may live in the same place they most certainly aren’t together. Monica Alis brick lane would be good background for that. I think about 10-15% of the London pop would fall under the Indian, Pakistani / Bangladeshi ethnic origin goups –with Indian being half that number. I could imagine a growing but not particularly successful militancy. Blood letting on any scale would be more likely between rival groups (ie bangaldesh v Indians) than muslim v white etc.

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Lobes asserts...

Posted May 8, 2009
Think its a fairly right wing govt. Think Jackboots and 'Show me zee papers' in a british accent.

But London is vastly different to the rest of England, always has been. I lived in London in the early 2000's it was on a knifes edge. When 9/11 went down we knew we could be next. In response duct tape sales were pretty much untouched while alcohol skyrocketed. It was a 24/7 bingeathon. After the tube bombings was even worse. Not to mention the train drivers strike, various electrical blackouts and the propensity of the tube system to collapse and leave millions stranded in pubs. Cheap alcohol was everywhere and drugs freely available if you knew the right tube stop to get off of. There is absolutely no doubt if we had just seen the USA obliterated by the wave then the first thing to go in London would be sobriety.

There were some ethnic tensions there. Particularly in the inner east with the large Bangladeshi pop in Tower Hamlets and Brick Lane. Further south in Brixton was a large Afro-Carribean population while a lot of the Arab population was around Bayswater and Queensway (sorry I'm reffing Tube stops here but its how I got around lol)

Spartys right about the gangs. Chavs are pretty much a clockwork orange like force already in some areas.

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sparty mutters...

Posted May 8, 2009
"first thing to go in London would be sobriety" LOL!

Don't undersetimate how time of year would be crucial- a good summer would help violence kick off - if it all takes place in winter then I think Police state has an easier time of it

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Tech puts forth...

Posted May 9, 2009
Think Northern Ireland in the 70's with local army/police/millia units given badges and big fuck off guns, which atually happened.

Backyard amoured up vans and land rovers doing all night patrols non british citerzens living in government controlled ghettos. Kinda like the nazis in WWII with the jews but without the gas chambers. Rationed foods and all with identity cards. There just not allowed to own anything of real value like a house. Emplyed as toliet scrubbers and such. Marched into city proper them marched back to ghetto under heavy guard. Major UK cities are all like this civilain armies are welcomed by the white middle class as its there protection. Regular army intergrated to police force and secruity service. " UK Home services "

Everyone ID card carrier. No card no work permit no food card etc. NON brits decided by " UK home sevices " sop if your 4th generation but non white .. your not brtish. All media outlets govermenrt controlled all company assets now government controlled included private farms. NOn brits do all the farming. Immagration suspened. No one in no one out unless your connected. MASSIVE black market in EU USA CHINA goods comes in vis chunnel/ Ireland ferries light aircraft etc. Little radar coverage or shore patrols as there is no money or equipment to do so. Alchol drugs near free and legal. keep peoplem pissed they dont realized there opressed.

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Trashman would have you know...

Posted May 9, 2009
I enjoyed the first story and will definitely get the next book, but I'm still not convinced about the whole Festung UK thing. Why would there be a sudden crackdown? The Asian population isn't exactly a monlothic block either.

The wave patently wasn't a terrorist attack and most of the middle ease no longer exists. What, exactly, was the trigger? Did I miss something in the book?

If something like this kicked off in the UK without something explicit to cause the population to give tacit consent (that something would require massive civilian casualties), I don't think the government would be in power for very long. Think the Poll Tax riots raised by several orders of magnitude. I don't even know if the Police or Army would obey orders like that. They're volunteers remember.

Just my tuppenceworth.

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Tucker Dwynn asserts...

Posted May 9, 2009
'The Torries didn't take over in a power grab... They were the only party willing to try and pick up the pieces...'

Either that could be the sitrep, or that's the party line they use. Just thinking that with everything going to hell would the Libs (knowing just how bad off the UK is going to be) or Labour really have a chance to try and rebuild, or would they intentionally try to lose, so they could clam "Look how bad the Torries are doing!" When they want to try and stage a comeback.

just my 3 cents... I'm generous like that (/joke)

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Mark R. Whittington asserts...

Posted May 9, 2009
Leader of the Tories at the time of the Wave woud be Iain Duncan Smith and, as I recall, was not very impressive. In OTL he was dumped in October, 2003.

I'm not sure that Maggie gets anything more than a ceremonial post, depending on when the strokes started to happen.

I can see someone rising from the back benches, in a kind of Francis Urquart style (g).

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Matthew K reckons...

Posted May 9, 2009
As a Brit I have to confess here that I'm with Trashman on this. I'll accept one incredible event (the Wave) but not loads of them. UK and France suddenly losing their minds is too weird. Especially because they couldn't afford to in such an uncertain world, the EU would stick together, things would become less democratic what with emergency laws etc.

Why go after the Muslims?

If there were any refugee camps they wouldn't be in the crowded south of the country; think Wales, Scotland or something. What's happened to Ireland? (Republic of)

Tories are the Conservative party don't forget, they want to conserve the UK not smash it, anyway Tony Blair would have been up for the challenge of the Wave, look at his speech he made immediately after 9/11. He wouldn't have let the Tories in, could see a government of national unity from all parties maybe...

Ken Livingstone might have done well out of it though, that rings true.

And armoured Land-Rovers, I like that. It needs Defenders with spotlights and grills all over them. That's just me though, I never need a reason to justify squared off utility vehicles.

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Matthew K mumbles...

Posted May 9, 2009
Trashman: "I don’t even know if the Police or Army would obey orders like that." This. I shouldn't think they're any more likely to do this than their Aussie counterparts. Could you imagine them going along with this?

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Matthew K reckons...

Posted May 9, 2009
If there was a law and order crackdown then stupid, white trash would feel the brunt, as they are the majority of the annoying fuckers who get on people's tits. Outside of London at least.

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Murphy reckons...

Posted May 9, 2009
Ah, Francis Urquart is a PM I could support. :)

I suspect you'd see more bicycles and horses.

Respects,

Murph

On the Outer Marches

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mckinneytexas asserts...

Posted May 9, 2009
I remain unclear: i don't see Americans, Aussies or Brits suppressing their own or the people putting up with it. I do see, for a finite period, the people going along with a fair amount of restrictions due to unavoidable rationing. but i also see these same people turning out to collaborate on mitigating food and fuel shortages.

I guess the Muslim angle is that, perhaps in response to 80% of the Middle East being obliterated, there is a bit of reactive surliness. Or, the Muslims simply went into revolt, or were feared to be heading that way, as an extension of events in France.

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sparty mutters...

Posted May 9, 2009
Yep- Trashman is right- not sure we'd have an extreme overreacton here race wise, but then where's the story!

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tygertim mutters...

Posted May 9, 2009
JB, what of the London Ghurka community? I'd love to see them doing something active, as I've a soft spot for them... I can just see a confrontation between them and some South Asians >:) wouldn't that be a humdinger of a match. I'd pay to watch. Maybe Prince Harry pulls them under his wing?

I dunno though, I can see an anti Muslim backlash... They've been active in enforcing their views of how things should be. I've read of a case where a nice old lady who collected porcelain pigs had it confiscated because Muslims could see it through her windows as they walked to Mosque and found it insulting. They took her to court and won, but she refused to remove the offensive porcelain porkers and the judge sent in the constabulary... I don't know how reliable this is as the source of information is the Gates of Vienna site... there are apparently a lot of little things like that that have been annoying the National Front folks... so there's your possible flash point... some of London's' more radical reactionary Clerics preach one fiery sermon too many and a riot develops? Or perhaps it's sparked off by a group of really devout South Asian youths whom throw acid into the face of a tarted up London teen on the bus? Or perhaps the radicals take the wave as a sign from Allah to act? It wouldn't take much in that sort of situation, where there is major anxiety and out right fear in the general population...

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Quokka would have you know...

Posted May 9, 2009
I like the idea of a nasty outbreak of ebola.

One of the Royals could bring it back from an orphanage in Zaire.

If not them then perhaps someone they're dating.

No good deed goes unpunished, right?

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tygertim mumbles...

Posted May 9, 2009
Here's a Challenge for you JB. Take all of my comments and make a chapter of it! The Ghurkhas come to the aid of the Teen Tart after a radical Cleric's sermon sparked a riot and that set off the Devout into action on the bus? I know you can do better.....

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tygertim is gonna tell you...

Posted May 9, 2009
Ohhhhh, quokka, that sooo deliciously evil! I love it!

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Quokka mutters...

Posted May 9, 2009
Then again on the practical side of things any disaster zone just ends up with diarrhoea. Its just that Ebola seems much more exciting than cholera and typhoid. Seriously, JB, I think you need to think about what happens in this scenario with disease control. You fuck up the infrastructure, people get sick. Not necessarily Stephen King The Stand type sick, but things do get ugly.

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Quokka mumbles...

Posted May 9, 2009
Toilet paper shortage? And maybe some rationing. And then some black marketeering.

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Quokka is gonna tell you...

Posted May 9, 2009
Wait! Madonna likes plucking children out of orphanages. As do others on the pages of Who Weekly. And with no-one to stop them...yep. I take it back. The Stand, revisited.

Or maybe a batch of botox could go bad and foot and mouth could envelop the Polo Set.

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Matthew K would have you know...

Posted May 9, 2009
Tyger: There wouldn't be much Gurkha community in 2003 London as their right of residence is only now being noisily hammered out in public as Labour politicians are chased around the room with Patsy from AbFab snapping at their heels. And very entertaining it is too.

Apparently 77% of Muslims are loyal to the UK as opposed to 36% of the rest of the population. (!!) According to today's Times.

There was a very large black market in WW2 UK, if there were restrictions and shortages history would repeat itself. Britons aren't naturally orderly, respectful or law abiding and we have a long history of smart arse talking back. (They didn't ship ALL the political subversives abroad you know.)

Sounds like JG Ballard would be a good source of inspiration. I know I keep mentioning him, but these scenarios JB comes up with put me in mind of his stuff.

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andyf is gonna tell you...

Posted May 9, 2009
theyre already on about identity cards.

any crack down would be carefully manipulated by HMG through the press,

the people would be clamouring for it.

Im thinkin the jihads-inspired by wave- threat would be suficient,

some mass attacks that were 'allowed' to happen, the Sun and Daily mail screaming for security..

oh yeah, it could happen here.

and the point about the guns..

in UK for a firearms licence you have to provide a good reason for a gun, and 4 passport photos.

1 in on the licence you get, 1 is obviously for police records,,

noone has a clue where the others are,

in any situation of widespread civil unrest expect a knock on the door in the first hours.

TA guarding the streets etc

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Matthew K puts forth...

Posted May 9, 2009
andyf: Sounds like the plot of V for Vendetta (film.)

Firearms are pretty durn rare here. I was thinking of applying for a .17hmr but as I was found in possession of too much hash in my youth... Shotguns more common.

Bottom line: HMG would keep most of the monopoly on the use of armed force.

Govt could get away with some shit I guess, and they could find idiots to do their bidding. But once their enemies united against a common enemy and got together there would be a lack of support. And guns can be manufactured. Think of the sten.

But more likely, the politicians involved would find themselves more and more isolated and one day their guards would become their jailers.

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Bondiboy66 asserts...

Posted May 9, 2009
Look up the old post-nuclear war telemovie 'Threads' on Google Video. That's some serious pommie post-apocalyptic vision right there.

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Matthew K reckons...

Posted May 9, 2009
Not to say I can't see a lot more officiousness, just not a full on dictatorship.

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Lobes ducks in to say...

Posted May 9, 2009
TygerTim I have never heard of The Gates of Vienna site before. But to judge it solely off the name it sounds like a fairly radical anti-muslim website.

Vienna, of course, was as far as the Ottoman empire got in its invasion of Europe in the 16th Century. The invading army got as far as Vienna which they besieged for over a year until backup in the form of Polish Cavalry swept down and expelled them. Interestingly in this conflict we had the first widespread use of explosives to attempt to bring down the city walls. The Ottomans would dig long tunnels under the Viennese walls and pack them with explosives. They used professional miners to dig their tunnels and ever since then military explosives used in that way have been known as 'mines' but I digress.

Anytime you hear an phrase implying the invasion and/or defence of Vienna its likely they are referencing the cultural touchstone of the the Ottoman invasion. Of course I may be wrong but the little old lady with the porcelain pig story does sound like classic fearmongering.

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NBlob reckons...

Posted May 9, 2009
With the lift in the block of council flats out of action again the old man with the cane takes almost forty minutes to get down to the allotment. He shows his identity card to the truculant darky at the gate and hobbles down to his little patch. He weeds his plots of carrots and notices the peas are coming along nicely. Six trips to the tap with the watering can and he's almost done. He tugs at one of the bushes and pull up a small bundle of spuds, "two more weeks and they'll be right" he mutters to himself "I'll sell a pound or two of them to the old Chinaman at the back of the pub, then I might be able to buy some of me heart medicine."

As he wraps his scarf around his neck and slaps the dirt from his gloves he hears a disturbance at the gate. He looks up to see an argument between the Darky Jonas, and a mob that are milling around outside the high wire gate. "That's all I need" thinks the old man. Then movement catches his eye, he sees four young men coming over the back fence, "pincer movement just like Belgium."

The old man knows that unless he and Jonas turn these Chavz there will be no Carrots, Peas or Spuds as this kind of raid has been going on across London for weeks now. He's heard that a pound of fresh potatoes are fetching more than a mans daily wage 'on the black.'

"Lets see if I remember my bayonet training" he thinks as as he neatly lays his coat and gloves on the ground and draws a four foot star picket from beside the compost pile and settles his footing.

"C'mon you little bastards, I'll show you old school."

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Lobes mumbles...

Posted May 9, 2009
LoL "Get off my Lawn" sounds a bit more intimidating when you're waving a star picket. Man, I've seen somebody get smashed with one of those... not cool at all. Fucking gruesome in fact.

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Matthew K is gonna tell you...

Posted May 9, 2009
Oooh. I LIKE that NBob.

Now am off to google star picket.

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HAVOCK mumbles...

Posted May 9, 2009
Just a small item, have you thought about the North Sea and all those OIL RIGS up there!. where is the UK's refining capacity located as well.

I wonder how much of the RN would be detailed to keeping these babies in service..then add the chunnel issues of surface transit. I see a lot of sorta suitable vessels being converted to ARMED TRAWLERS, troops deployed on rigs as well.

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HAVOCK puts forth...

Posted May 9, 2009
OK some other items as well. Maybe OT a bit.

Infrastructure.

Gas and electricity, sewage, water and telecoms. All the networks need to be maintained in some fashion. Are people pressed into doing maint, are only small teams available for this, whats critical to be maintained.

Then toss in say ROAD maint gangs as well, paid, Voluntary or forced as well.

HEATING: BIG ONE, co's if services are out, then trees are it. Landowners are not gunna like that much, the rapid deforestation of their land, or will the gummit, detail certain areas for lopping.

Then you will have issues such as the Fire Dept, London is High density, what happens with a fire outbreak, people been doing HOME repairs etc and all sorts of stuff. MAYBE London burns to da ground again, or a large part. that then makes a lotta people homeless as well.

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NBlob reckons...

Posted May 9, 2009
Silver Lining.

9 weeks of martial law and closed borders had done for Jojo what four bouts of rehab had not been able to achieve - she was off the junk. As her head cleared and the pains & chills receded into a dim memory she took stock. Her years on the junk had ruined her body and face, but had not dimmed the rat-cunning that was her sole inheritance from First Law Lord Sir Wiliam Henderon-Lyons. Her years working street corners and phone box ads had given her a crystal insight into the baser tastes of men, particularly men of power. Now she combined the two.

She had acquired a nondescript 2 bedroom flat on Maiden Lane 2 blocks from The Strand, she had gathered a stable of eight working girls and had forged working relationships with a couple of men she considered "strategic business partners." In return for free executive services they provided her with the other crucial elements of the business - mobility & invisibility. A weekly official chit for 20 litres of diesel gave her 'round the clock use of a taxi. Identity passes for her girls in a couple of different names kept them below the radar. Fresh and tinned food kept her girls ahead of the scabborous scags practically giving it away on street corners. Her clientelle paid top money for top quality and Quality is what she provided.

As the borders had closed and Martial Law had come into effect many had been trapped behind what had come to be known as the Burberry Curtain. The Arab princess had fled in their lear jets leaving their entourage to fend for themselves, many Aupairs and Nannys had been flung out on the street, and the Eastern European girls - the work horses of the "escort business" for the last ten years had been left without papers.

Jojo had picked the cream of this crop and had set them to work.

Yep, the end of the world certainly seemed to have a silver lining for Jojo.

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Matthew K mutters...

Posted May 9, 2009
UK does have a lot of coal Havock - look forward to London fog returning! And it's called the Fire Brigade over here, and I think they'd stay working.

N'other nice one NBob.

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Lobes ducks in to say...

Posted May 9, 2009
They tightened building regulations considerably after 1666 too so you dont see the types of fires and stuff that are common in American cities.

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lostatlunch puts forth...

Posted May 9, 2009
There are large marching music... spliffy uniforms almost germanic in stature.. the Poms are not above blaming "others" same as the germans did in the 50's and a crowd pleaseing charasmatic leader like Obama could take them down that path.

Someone else is to blame and the english are people who like a good queue. France went to crap and I can see the British people welcoming a firm hand to keep the country functioning... Even Phillip counseling lizzy to keep the right people in place.

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DrYobbo puts forth...

Posted May 9, 2009
Very minor point - while the Millennium stadium could be used as a Superdome style holding pen, it's in Cardiff rather than London. Which would probably make sending peeps there the cultural equiv of Guantanamo Bay. New Wembley has no lid. Wouldn't have been building Olympics stuff either given they'd not have won the rights to the games by Wave time. East end - as was.

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NBlob has opinions thus...

Posted May 9, 2009
Mr Nahassaheemapetalon was justifiably proud of his home, his shop and his family.

His house was noticeably neater than the others in the street. His neighbours had joked with him, before the wave, that he must use a jig to trim his topiary as the corners were so perfectly squared. His shop, a mixed business was an off-licence that stocked some dry goods, a few dairy lines (they went off so quickly) and the usual newsagency lines of smokes & lottery tickets. His family consisted of his sainted mother, a withered bitter old crone of a mother-in-law, his wife and his youngest two daughters. His girls were the apples of his eye. God had not seen his way to bless him with a son, but his girls - what girls they were, enough to make his chest puff out every time he thought of them. The oldest was a programmer - not that he had any real idea what that required - but he knew she had blitzed her O & A levels, topped her class at university and had been courted by several of the biggest software brands in Europe. The second oldest worked in The City in business banking and was due to be engaged to that gormless clot from the temple. Mr Nahassaheemapetalon thought her suitor was about as bright as a ten-watt bulb, but he would provide for his daughter and grandchildren-to-be and his daughter seemed happy with him.

Mr Nahassaheemapetalon had voted Tory since he had arrived in 1967. He had always hated that insincere toad Blair and his party of sunshine & lollipops merchants. When the wave had fallen on America and the Israelis has erased the Arabs he knew the time had come for a strong man at the helm and the current Tory PM had not let him down. There was order in the streets of London unlike across the Channel where the Frogs seemed to be finding new & improved ways of killing each other every second day.

Each morning at five he walked the mile and half to his store, took in the papers, received the milkman’s grumbles and stock and set to work. Since the Wave & the Troubles on the continent many of the lines had become harder to restock and some of the prices he had to pay were outrageous. Those Trotskyists at the Manchester Guardian had blamed the new Government, not any longer. He hadn't received a Guardian in 3 months and doubted he'd be seeing it any time soon. The Sun and News of the World had the inside story. They knew what was going on & weren’t afraid to tell the public exactly who was at fault: the bloody Muslims & their towel-headed ilk.

This morning was grey and overcast with a light drizzle falling as Mr Nahassaheemapetalon set to his jobs for the morning. He was sweeping the floor and muttering darkly about the rubbish people tracked into his shop when he heard the bass rumbling of a mob coming down the street. This wasn’t the first civil unrest he had seen in the neighbourhood and he paused on the shop’s stoop wondering if he should close up, he decided against it. When the mobs milled and eddied past the shop he often got customers popping in for a couple of cans and a packs of smokes, it could make a big difference to his days takings. The vanguard of the mob turned the corner. They were carrying hand written & poorly spelled ‘Anti Paki’ placards and chanting “kick the Towel heads out.”

They did not march past - they stopped outside his store. Mr Nahassaheemapetalon couldn’t believe it. He was a good British Citizen. He’d been a fixture on this corner for 20 years. He had done all he could to blend in with the community. He was trusted. For God’s sake he was a Sikh not a Muslim.

The first rocks rained down on Mr Nahassaheemapetalon as he tried to reason with the mob. He heard his windows smash. He was driven to the ground by stones, boots, fists and axe handles. He saw the mob surge over him into his shop and loot the sparsely stocked shelves. The last thing he heard was one yob jeer as he ran past with an armload of booty

"Thankyou, come again."

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NBlob mutters...

Posted May 9, 2009
Ok. Stopping now.

Damn you & your Pepsi challenges JB.

At 0300 I was staring at the ceiling thinking these 3 over & round & back & over again.

No wonder SWMBO gets p!ssy about my blogging.

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DrYobbo puts forth...

Posted May 9, 2009
Know the feeling NBob, and it's only gotten worse - joined Twunter.

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Brian asserts...

Posted May 9, 2009
Hmm . . .wonder what's happened to the European Common Market? The French have probably drunk their wine lake.

I also wonder about all the Brits who have pulled up their roots and are now living in Majorca and Spain.

Thinking about Brit security. The most heavilly surveillanced country in the world with all their CCTV's everywhere.

Hyde Psrk;s 'Speakers Corner' will be an ever so interesting place.

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Chaz mumbles...

Posted May 9, 2009
Hmm it'd be like Thatchers Britain all over again but with CCTV camera, and instead of the IRA it'd be AQ inspired militias from finsbury park and leicester.

Of course JB you already said in WW that there were race riots. Sequestraion of the muslim asians, Afrocarribean communities thinking 'thank god it's them taking the can this time', The indian community helping the gov however they can, to stick the knife into the pakistanis.

Any form of speratism stamped down on the SNP attacked by scottish labour for trying the wreck thr country. the welsh assembly shut down duie to the emergancy. In ulster a hushed calm, waiting to see if the Prodies and Fenians have another go at each other.

Meanwhile white little england see the threat from asia and the middle east. Edgewhere road is like down town beirut with most of the cafe's and restaurants either sealed up or burnt out. 1 in 2 mosques burnt out those left have a guard for protection from the new 'Specials' a milita set up to help the police force with public order issues basically the SPG reaminated but with civvies not police.

In the countryside movement is regulated by pass papers farmers protect their land fiercly and trepassers are treated harshly. Townies are not welocme esp those who had second homes in the villages. Those that make it out to the country find their cottages either buirnt out or having been taken over thanks to the village council. ie better the place goes to a local couple not some rich townies who's never there except one weekend in two.

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CraigWA puts forth...

Posted May 9, 2009
You might have military putting checkpoints on all of the bridges. You've got at least 2 road tunnels, multiple train/tube tunnels and at least 1 pedestrian tunnel (south end of Isle of Dogs) under the Thames. Would you be controlling movement?

City of London and Canary Wharf aren't going to be the thriving hub of banking any more. The Square Mile is home to about 30,000 people but 300,000 people come to work there every day. It might be a bit of a wasteland inside London. Isle of Dogs probably isn't the same because there is a lot more new residential down there.

Have they done something interesting with the London Eye?

Oxford Street and Regent street would also be radically changed because nobody would have anything to sell.

During WW II, they had all of the parks turned into vegetable gardens. Depending on how long this has been going on, you might do the same. If you go to the supermarkets in the UK, the bulk of the fruit and vegetables come from overseas. Huge culture shock for people living here going back to 60s type locally grown diet.

As I moved to the UK in 2003 I have some clear memories of what it was like at that point. It was the era of the coffee shop with 6 different chains operating in London. There will be a lot of coffee shops that are boarded up, trashed or just closed because they can't get coffee and the business model wasn't working at that point because if 1 in 3 shops is a coffee shop, there aren't enough customers.

Wembley Stadium was being constructed and probably never got finished. The gherkin was also under construction at that time and probably never got finished.

All of the well to do's in London have probably evacuated to their second holiday homes in the country because when you get down to it, it's probably a nicer place to stay than London which is likely to be the focus of lots of race riots.

Things to do. Might come back and try to think of more later.

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Matthew K mumbles...

Posted May 9, 2009
I'd expect to see some sort of national govt. propaganda campaign encouraging social cohesion to avoid events like NBob describes. The silent majority REALLY wouldn't mind seeing a mob of rampaging scum getting machine gunned to protect a Hindu corner shop. We like Hindu corner shops.

A spot of fully automatic riot control would send the right message: pour encourager les autres, as the French say. (Shouldn't that be discourage?)

And "Ordnung muss sein" as the Germans say. At the end of the day we don't mind people mouthing off but we do get irritated by disorder. And that's when things are going well.

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Murphy has opinions thus...

Posted May 10, 2009
There is going to be a shortage of tea, I suspect, following on what CraigWA said about coffee shops.

Respects,

Murph

On the Outer Marches

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Sweet Jane Says would have you know...

Posted May 10, 2009
England has endured Romans, Vikings, the French, the plague, the Spanish, Colonial resistance, WW I, an American divorcee, and WW II. I don't imagine she'd fall apart because the US is zapped.

J.

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lostatlunch swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 10, 2009
fear & panic are vastly under estimated motivators.

What any of us, on a personal level, would do after the psychological shock of the wave is hard to imagine.

What someone in power, like Blair, could do is hard to imagine. he is in as much shock as the rest of us.

What sort of influence could a regular knutjob like Pauline Hanson muster?

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Quokka puts forth...

Posted May 10, 2009
But will they have cable?

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Trowzers puts forth...

Posted May 10, 2009
I haven't read the other comments yet but - why not just watch V for Vendetta? (or read the graphic novel- they are not the same but both good). Sounds just like what you are describing :)

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Sweet Jane Says is gonna tell you...

Posted May 10, 2009
Great Britain was alive before the US; Great Britain would live after the US.

J.

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John Birmingham ducks in to say...

Posted May 10, 2009
I love Lobes' end of sobriety idea so much I wish I'd put it in the first book.

NBob, awesome stuff.

As for repression, and race based argy bargy, I'll tweak the copy in light of some above comments.

But I think we can assume there was some unpleasantness after Israel launched the Second Holocaust.

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sparty would have you know...

Posted May 10, 2009
SJ - and so say us all!

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NBlob puts forth...

Posted May 10, 2009
Thankyou sir.

Just do me one small favour?

No more than one Pepsi per month?

I don't know if my tired little brain can hack the (entirely self imposed) pressure.

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Matthew K asserts...

Posted May 11, 2009
Thank you SJ.

But... NO COFFEE! That's a riotin'. Lack of tea? Not so much. Not nowadays. (I had no idea the lack of a USA would lead to coffee and tea shortages, all the more for the rest of us I would've thought... )

There would be heavy handed and clumsy govt. and it wouldn't necessarily very efficient. Tories would try and shrink the state but not it's security apparatus. Labour would want to starve the security goons while working them to death and old Labour types would want the state in parts of the economy and society where it has failed before. We might see a resurgence of the old pre socialist type of utopian radicalism like the Levellers/Diggers/Chartists, some sort of attempt to build Jerusalem. ... ?

Trowzers: The graphic novel of V for Vendetta is much better, and does have exactly the austerity Britain vibe that JB has described, with a tatty, grey feel to it. I figure JB has read it already as this London scenario seems familiar.

Wartime Britain and the Austerity that followed it were characterised by rationing, a ubiquitous "fell off the back of a lorry" black market, a "make do and mend" attitude and weary stoicism. I reckon those things could return.

But one thing is different: Britons. My strong impression is of a much meaner minded nation in the '40s, this is where the whinging poms stereotype came from I think. I feel that Brits then were much more likely to be pursed lipped curtain twitchers with chips on their shoulders re class. (Not all, but many)It may just be that 6 years of total war had leached all the gaiety from them. (Aussie troops were regarded as being insolent and not nearly deferential enough. By officers.)

Point is; the culture has changed, Brits aren't nearly so deferential or resentful now, so how would we react to shortages of both freedom and commodities? Yes, there would be unrest. There would also. I feel, be a great deal of popular pressure on those in charge to be very, very good at their jobs and scant patience if they were less than brilliant.

(I'd meant to use the culture clash between mean minded temps and the 21C Brits as background in a bit of AoT fanfic but never got around to it.)

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The Great Destroyer swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 11, 2009
Your assumptions are too optimistic.

You're going to get the race war, all right, but traditional Britain is going to lose.

Think blocks of rubble, no water or electricity, dead bodies left to bloat and rot, and Sharia law enforced across the city by roving gangs of male Islamists enforcing it via public torture and executions.

Think Lebanon circa 1982.

Think Liberia circa 1990.

That's your future.

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Arty mutters...

Posted May 11, 2009
I hope that degraded standard of living doesn't spread to any civilized countries.

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Chuck Simmins asserts...

Posted May 11, 2009
Infrastructure. The miles of sewers beneath London, and the abandoned tunnels for them and the subway. Tidal barriers in river fail, or worse, stick in closed position.

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NukemHill ducks in to say...

Posted May 11, 2009
I haven't much to contribute re: London, but I'm glad I found this site. I read Without Warning shortly after it was released here in the US. Looooooooooooved it!

I've got all kinds of interesting ideas about what happens here during the "Recovery". (Don't know what you are going to call it.) But there are so many reasons for pitched battles between the US Recovery Team(s) and the various International Vultures. How do you protect key scientific/military installations? (the nuke sites alone are too many to count) How do you reconstitute the farm lands? Will there be any effort put into discovering what caused the Anomoly? (I'm betting it was a research project gone wrong.) Does the US government keep control only of Hawaii, Gitmo, and the Pacific NW? Or does it try to enforce sovereignty from border to border? Does the government devolve into a loose Federation? And the international scene (which is what you're addressing in part here, obviously) can't really be anything less than a total meltdown (which was well on its way in the WW). Commerce as we know it, both nationally and internationally has to pretty much disappear on a macro level. Those of us who are libertarian-minded would see this as an opportunity to start the US economy from scratch, with huge restrictions on governmental powers.

I'm really looking forward to how you resolve some completely unavoidable situations.

Darn it! Why couldn't you have just written the whole damn thing at once?! I hate waiting for sequels....

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NukemHill mumbles...

Posted May 11, 2009
Oh, yeah. All the precious metal reserves have to be protected.

Yes, I've been thinking about this a lot. Why do you ask? ;-)

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richardb mutters...

Posted May 11, 2009
Symbols of British power are gutted. Westminster burned and looted.

Big Ben, a bent, blacken husk.

Tubes used for mass graves since fuel is scare.

Trafalgar Square still the scene of public executions of past British Labor politicians blamed for multiculturalism and pacifism in the face of Islam.

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Fat Man puts forth...

Posted May 11, 2009
Fascinating. You people cannot see what is in front of you.

A surveillance state straight out of 1984 and East German reality. You have the cameras on every corner, how soon are they in your houses?

Political correctness enforced by thug cops. Try warning people about the rising tide of jihad, or the global warming scam.

All industry and electricity banned to save Gaia. The return of plague and pox. The return of "pea-soup fogs" caused by burning "sea-coal" and wood, because electricity and natural gas are no longer avaiable.

A dictatorship of the proletariat run by Islamic militants who impose sharia and send women to purdah.

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dustydog ducks in to say...

Posted May 11, 2009
Y'all got it completely backward. Britons are made of sterner stuff; a collapse of society will burn off the dross. London would be ruled by a king, with absolute authority and legal ownership of all people and property. Brutally efficient knights, intelligent pragmatic decision-making. Strong family bonds, right to work (i.e. to use state land or property to work) would depend upon trust. The people would love and support their king, and his representatives. Crime would be low.

Without regard for race, people refusing to accept the state would have been ruthlessly put down. Lebanon, Mogadishu - they are the product of a different culture.

If you need a government form, you'd be proud to have it, and would display it. People coming into your business would look at it and remark upon it.

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Wes S. would have you know...

Posted May 11, 2009
John, I just found this post via Glenn Reynolds over at Instapundit. I bought "Without Warning" - largely on Glenn's recommendation - and loved it. (As a resident of the Kansas City area, I especially got a kick out of your descriptions of post-Wave KC, and did a double-take at your description of the bombed-out Quik-Trip on Armour Road in North Kansas City; I work in Northtown and had actually bought gas at that particular QT the week before "Without Warning" was released in the US.) I'm looking forward to the sequel.

My take on post-Wave England is that they'd have some of the same problems that NukemHill described the post-Wave US facing, although instead of "international vultures" you'd have internal factions tearing up the country. I'm not sure how much the British military could do to prevent the situation; Britain has really built down their military since the end of the Cold War and in the "Without Warning" timeline most of what they had circa 2003 was in the Middle East deployed for Operation Iraqi Freedom...and is still there trying to keep a lid on what's left of the Middle East after Saddam's fall and Israel pushing the nuclear button.

So, with the British military out of the way, I think you'd have various armed gangs (criminal, racial, ethnic, you name it) running wild. I'd expect younger Muslims to do the same (much as you depicted happening in France in WW). I think nationalist and seperatist movements would further fracture the country (Tony Blair arguably started that process by setting up seperate Scottish and Welsh Parliaments).

And I'd think the fear and uncertainty of ordinary British citizens, who have already been largely disarmed, subjected to all sorts of infringements on their civil liberties and all kinds of intereference in their lives by bureaucrats, facing out-of-control levels of crime, and are increasingly becoming fed up with all of the above, would morph pretty quickly into rage if something like the Wave and the resulting chaos broke down civil order in the country.

And to keep order all the British government would have is what little of the military wasn't already deployed overseas and a largely disarmed police force...which I think would almost panic the government into some sort of martial-law crackdown that arguably might make things even worse...because ordinary citizens would see that they weren't really in control and might even see the government as just one more batch of thugs.

Oh yes: I think post-Wave London would look like a cross between "V for Vendetta" and "Mad Max." And if the UK ever did get things sorted out - they'd probably end up under some sort of totalitarian government - one wonders if they'd be one of NukemHill's "international vultures" trying to plunder what's left of North America...

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Matthew K asserts...

Posted May 11, 2009
Thank you dustydog, exactly what I reckon. Except we have a Queen here.

OK yes there would be unrest, and London would have it's Beirut like neighbourhoods, but there's plenty of non-white Brits who are as old school British as the Queen. (I know some of them.) So not every ethnic neighbourhood would need to be patrolled by armoured Land-Rovers.

I've Muslim blokes who fitted seamlessly into the working class environment of white vans, short cropped hair and steel toecap boots. It's a question of attitude: Muslims tend to stay "working class" as opposed to Hindus who are after for professional status from the get go.

London's big infrastructure components would be kept going because it would have to be, it's that simple.

You would have internal factions but those who choose extra parliamentary methods would have to be treated as traitors...

Access to firearms would skew things though, they are rare here. (Legal ones anyway). Those that had them would be in a position of power. But how difficult is it to manufacture guns in a country like this? Guns are not near as complicated as a car engine and the UK is full of blokes who can build those. You'd need a workshop and an engineer or two. (?) I'd think cartridges would be the problem.

Anyhow I would expect that people would insist on a right to keep and bear arms if the forces of law n' order couldn't keep the scum in their barrios.

And how long would it take to get the forces back here if it really was time critical? One month max, eh?

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Matthew K asserts...

Posted May 11, 2009
And Wes S: Our cops do have guns - G36s, MP5s and Glock 17s. Not every officer is trained to use them but there are a few. And then there's army stockpiles, I think there must be quite a lot of L1A1 FN FALs raked somewhere.

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Brian mumbles...

Posted May 11, 2009
Disturbs me that the prize is Pepsi. If'n it was somehing like : 20 minutes snatch and grab from JB's liqour cabinet . . . .yeah . . .

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NukemHill mutters...

Posted May 11, 2009
How about a shadow/exile government being established "elsewhere"? Maybe in Scotland or Wales? Prolly not Ireland! The "Loyalists" would be a confederation of pre-Collapse British government officials, military leaders, and royalists. They'd be the ones aligned with the US.

It's pretty much assumed that the Internet as we've come to know it disappears, yes? That obviously has an enormous impact on communications. Is the international satellite network stable? If not, then even more communication breakdowns result. (You may have already started this process; I'm not remembering all of the details from WW.) I'd count on the undersea cables being cut, probably by pirates.

Even better, I'd have one of the Vultures (with a legitimate sea presence) focus on cutting off all land/sea-based communication networks to and from the US. And that could be a battle that Britain fights against their enemies, too.

Are you going to have any long-term environmental issues arise from Israel's nuclear attacks in the Middle-East? That would be some nice salt to pour on the wound, so to speak.

Someone mentioned Mad Max earlier. You're going to have to walk a very fine line in order to pull off anything short of total societal collapse, and have it be believable. The "Dark Years" could very easily be decades, or even more than a century, long in well over 75% of the world. And even those areas that manage to either avoid it, or pull themselves back out of it fairly quickly, will see ginormous setbacks for many years to come.

I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir!

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Matthew K mutters...

Posted May 11, 2009
NukeHill: "long-term environmental issues arise from Israel’s nuclear attacks "

True that. It's big thing to let off so many nukes inside Earth's atmosphere - Nuclear winter? (Or is that dated?)

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Guy puts forth...

Posted May 11, 2009
Back in the 1970s ethnic minorities in the UK were usually described as "black" and "Asian". Nowadays the "Asian" category has disappeared to be replaced by subdivisions such as "Muslim", "Hindu", "Bangladashi" etc. Remember that many of these communities that were lumped together under the "Asian" heading do not like each other very much. The Indian/Hindu community has done very well economically by and large, while the Muslims tend to be at the bottom of the heap. Also, if the Blair government had decided to throw out the Muslims he would have made a great show of NOT throwing out the Hindus (just to show what a non-racist kind of chap he was). Given the very tense relations between Hindu and Muslim there would very likely have been many Hindus who would have supported the expulsion of the Muslims and the Government would have used this to their advantage.

Furthermore, with continental Europe going up in flames, the vast majority of British people, including Londoners, would be demanding heavily increase security measures to control rioting Mulims and others and to prevent the country being overwhelmed by refugees from the continent. The average Brit would have seen the BBC reports of the chaos, death and destruction in Paris and would support any kind of draconian security measures in order to avoid the same thing happening in Britain.

With America gone and most of Europe in turmoil, the British government would be looking to secure food resources from the Irish Republic, which has a traditional large agricultural surplus. The Irish, enjoying better relations with the UK since the Good Friday Agreement, and worried about their own security and keen to be able to continue to export, would most likely decide that it was in their interests to forge closer links with Britain.

The British would also look to Norway for oil and gas. The Norwegians were already supplying a good deal of both to the UK via teh already existing shared pipelines under the North Sea and it is likely they would be prepared to cooperate. They would want to have a closer relationship with the UK as Britain seems to be the major European power least affected by the massive post-wave instability. Norway has a small population and tiny armed forces. They would be grateful to be able to increase their security links with the British and to continue to be able to export their oil and gas to a (relatively) secure market.

It would be a very tense and unpleasant few years for the UK and for London, with very high levels of unemployment, shortages of virtually everything, perhaps even outright hunger but I believe that, compared with most of the rest of Europe, Britain would do relatively well.

The Tories might be back in power but it seeems likely that they would be leading a national coalition government. I doubt that conditions would permit a full scale general election.

The Government would be heavily promoting symbols of unity such as the Queen. There would be great propaganda efforts made to mould public opinion with memories of 1940, the threat from overseas, us against the world etc. Given the lack of anything else to do with curfews etc, the public would be watching listening to the BBC/SKY etc in record numbers and this would give the government a great opportunity to manage the public mood.

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Matthew K has opinions thus...

Posted May 11, 2009
What Guy said. Especially a sort of north European band of Ireland, UK and Norway, and the other Scandos would come with Norway, they usually stick together. I could see much of the EU needing to do that sort of thing, but Holland and Germany would be right there I'd bet.

People would be poorer, but they'd would still have cupboards full of clothes left over from the good times shoes would wear out faster. Much more people trudging around in worn out trainers.

I think the air would smell of coal and wood smoke much more, and there would be the fast food smells of diesel engines burning used chip fat and veg oil to top up the Norwegian oil. Vehicles would be noisier too as people get rid of exhaust systems with gas guzzling catalysts and fit simpler straight through pipes.

A shortage of antiperspirant (and household heating oil?) and lots more walking and cycling means people would be smellier, a combination of smelly feet and sweaty pits.

To get into houses you would have to negotiate an obstacle course of handle bars, pedals and panniers; streets, alleys and hallways would be cluttered with bikes locked to railings etc. Bike theft would be a more serious crime and much more common. The streets would be full of the rattlings and squeaks of semi maintained bikes.

Markets would be popular as people looked to make money by selling off stuff and to pick up cheap food: Most towns have a market place, Tesco would be a duller place though - maybe they'd start some sort of farmer's market themselves to keep up?

People would routinely carry a bag or day pack just in case they find a bargain.

Diesel vans and utility vehicles would become sought after to haul firewood and salvage, people would hoard piles of scrap and lumber under tarps in their back gardens.

Scrap merchants would be rich.

Rubbish would really be rubbish, nobody will chuck something that can be reused or sold.

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Guy ducks in to say...

Posted May 11, 2009
Just to add to what I said before (and to what Matt has just written, which seems spot on)the Government has had for the last 60 years a special (and constantly updated) protection plan in place for key buildings in London and elsewhere that would be activated in the event of serious civil disorder. This would involve a proverbial "ring of steel" being put around Westminster and Whitehall for a start. Images of the Palace of Westminster gutted by fire might be good disaster movie fare but in reality the Palace and the Government ministries nearby would remain secure no matter what might happen elsewhere. Similar measure would certainly be in place at other key buildings such as the British Museum, the National Gallery, Kensington Palace etc.

Also worth adding that the Sikh community is historically even more hostile to the Muslims than the Hindus. They are a warrior people and highly likely to stand alongside the UK government in any action against Muslims.

It is also highly likely that the post-Wave emergency would strongly reinforce the Union between England Scotland and Wales. In a time of serious trouble, the Scots and Welsh would be much more interested in the greater security that would certainly come from being part of a United Kingdom rather than risking their safety by playing games with deveolution/independence.

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mckinneytexas mumbles...

Posted May 12, 2009
Would it be possible that there is an element within the Muslim community that is disrespecting the UK's firearms ban and that, when the shit hits the fan, there is a well-armed, unhappy group of non-assimiliationists?

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Matthew K asserts...

Posted May 13, 2009
Yes, Mckinney. Seeing as most of the Pakistanis in the UK are Pathan (? Pashto) and of the same tribe as the Taliban. But home-made bombs seem to be more what our security services are worried about. But add in Jihadi training camps visits when back home plus East European guns...

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Steve G. has opinions thus...

Posted May 14, 2009
Vermin - Nobody writes about how rats, mice, chipmunks or squirrels and their parasites might adapt to a new regime.

Espcially, I'd think that flies, fleas and ticks would increase with decreased living standards and decreased or absent cleanliness standards. Add to that the large collection of new food for them - dead, dying and unattended sick people - this would become a real plague.

Then the diseases they bear would reappear and rampage through the weakened population.

Those things would bring about quite a few changes in behavior.

P.S., love your books - write more soon!

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John Birmingham would have you know...

Posted May 14, 2009
Ah,Steve G. you missed it but we did do a long thread on this after the book came out. It helped me with the sequel. Glad you enjoyed the scribblin'.

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NBlob swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 14, 2009
Is it time for some Dickensian squallor, work houses & Plague?

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Matthew K is gonna tell you...

Posted May 14, 2009
I reckon the govt. would invest in a lot of Keynesian style projects to keep people busy and kick start the economy, so there'd be a lot of people employed as rat catchers, street sweepers, neighbourhood wardens etc etc.

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Guy would have you know...

Posted May 14, 2009
It's worth remembering that during the Second World War when german submarine attacks led to severe rationing of food and drink in Britain, the population was never more healthy. It's much better for you to eat vegetables and take lots of exercise digging your allotments and training with the Home Guard than it is to sit on your backside at home eating hamburgers and chocolate and swigging back the booze (although the burgers are likely to taste better than the swedes and turnips!) One beneficial by-product of the post-Wave upheaval for the Brtish would probably be that most people would become slimmer and fitter thanks to a better, if less satisfying, diet and more exercise.

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Matthew K mumbles...

Posted May 14, 2009
For sure, and Britain has quite a lot of good farmland. Back to the old fashioned all pervading smell of boiled cabbage.

So, 21st C austerity Britain: smellier, thinner, shabbier.

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Guy would have you know...

Posted May 14, 2009
Dig for Victory!

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lotocoti mumbles...

Posted May 15, 2009
Rather than putting the Tories in power, just run with Labour (which fits the timeline... the next election would have been 2005) an ousted Blair and a psychotic Brown with their (Labour's) appalling Civil Contingencies Act (1984 was the template)in force.

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2004/en/ukpgaen_20040036_en_1

Which would pretty much crush the population, DDR style.

That opens the door to a lot of civil insurrection and especially capital flight.

Julianne's career as a Capital Runner would really take off then.

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Respond to 'Pepsi Challenge. London after the Wave.'

Ever had a dislocated shoulder?

Posted May 5, 2009 by John Birmingham
One of my characters just got one and I need to know what it feels like, how long to recover, how much mobility returns in what time etc.

52 Responses to ‘Ever had a dislocated shoulder?’

Bondiboy66 reckons...

Posted May 5, 2009
Hmm buggered if I know - but if its anything like a broken elbow then I'd say Farken Painful, couldn't sleep lying down for a week due to the pain (despite beer and Panadeine Forte being gobbled like Smarties, mobility was virtually nil then gradually came back over a period of about 3-6 months. Still gets stiff 2 years later,crackles and groans often, and I'll probably never regain the ability to straighten my arm fully. Fun eh?

That delightful little anecdote may help!

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Lobes is gonna tell you...

Posted May 5, 2009
Nope never (touch wood). I did bust up my ac once snowboarding. But thats a bit different, though I can say even a moderate shoulder injury makes driving almost impossible.

We had a winger once who had a really dicky shoulder. It was weak and he'd dislocated it numerous times. He could occaionally put it out during a game and then snap it back in and play on. But he was always reduced effectiveness afterwards and I never saw him do it twice in one game.

It depends on a few factors but Overwhelmingly the severity of the dislocation is most important. A first time limb dislocation is a traumatic experience. If it pops out and STAYS out you're pretty much helpless unless you know how to reinsert it. Adrenaline might get you a ways but you'll be less than 50% effectiveness at best. I saw a guy go into shock once over a knee dislocation (he wasnt on my team fyi)

If your character is an otherwise fit adult male and the severity and duration of the dislocation was moderate I'd give it two days for partial use, ~ a week for full range of movement and possibly a month+ for 100% strength. But in my experience dudes with dislocated shoulders have a lot of trouble ever getting back to 100% afterwards. Its one of those injuries where if you pop it once it just gets easier and easier each time.

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Barnesm is gonna tell you...

Posted May 5, 2009
Never Broke a shoulder, dislocated both but never broke the bone. While a dislocated shoulder hurts, so does 'popping' it back in.

From a couple of medical websites

The shoulder blade (scapula) is rarely broken. Of all bone breaks, shoulder blade breaks occur less than 1% of the time.

Scapular fractures occur more often in young men aged 25-45 years because of the activities and trauma they encounter. These occur with athletic activities, motor vehicle accidents, and other forms of blunt trauma.

If you are talking about a Clavicle fracture these are more common.

They can occur different ways. Some patients fall on an outstretched hand, others fall and hit the outside of their shoulder. Broken collarbones can also occur from a direct hit to the clavicle. In babies, clavicle fractures occur at birth during passage through the birth canal. ( I assume we aren't talking about that sort of injury?)

The symptoms of a broken collarbone, most often are shoulder pain, (who'd have thought it?) and difficulty moving their arm (no shit Sherlock) . Swelling and bruising around the broken bone are also quite common. After the swelling has subsided, the fracture is often easily felt through the skin.

At the doctor's office or in the emergency room, an x-ray will show the fracture. Your doctor will also perform an examination to ensure the nerves and blood vessels surrounding the clavicle are in tact. The nerves and vessels are rarely injured because of a broken collarbone.

And the treatment for a clavicle fractures? While I'd recommend massive quanties of drugs and hard liquor the medical websites recommend Treatment of clavicle fractures most commonly involves resting the affected extremity. There are several types of slings available; one commonly used is called a"figure-of-8" splint. This is a brace that wraps around the shoulders to keep them back--like a soldier standing at attention.

It is unusual for a clavicle fracture to require surgery, and most often an attempt at treatment in a sling is made. Surgery is required in some situations when either the skin is broken or if the fracture is severely displaced or shortened.

How long does it take to recover from a collarbone fracture? TOO FRACKING LONG Clavicle fractures should heal completely within 12 weeks, but the pain usually subsides within a few weeks. Often patients are back to full activities before 12 weeks has passed, especially with younger patients.

Hope this helps

As a general guide to return to activities, nothing should cause worsening pain. If not wearing a sling causes pain, wear a sling. If driving hurts the fracture site, don't drive. If throwing a ball hurts, don't throw. Once an activity doesn't cause significant pain, a gradual return can be attempted.

Recovery is usually complete, with a full return expected. Patients may notice a persistent bump where the fracture was (often for months or longer), but this should not be bothersome.

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Abe asserts...

Posted May 5, 2009
Nope. Dislocated a kneecap in January if that helps?

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Brian ducks in to say...

Posted May 5, 2009
Barnes? As your in the mood to be giving out medical advice . . . there's this little problem I got . . . .?

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Patricia swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 5, 2009
Um, I don't know if I can be of much help because my joints are hypermobile...so they pop in and out if the muscles around them are not strong. I tend to do yoga every day to keep them strong and hold them in, because the white tissue is loose around the joints. I've never fully dislocated a shoulder, only the arm socket...but I put it back in straight away. It's painful, but nothing like dislocating the femur out of your hip socket. Now THAT is pain.

But yeah, Barnes is your man, I reckon.

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mckinneytexas puts forth...

Posted May 5, 2009
I'll ask a doctor bud of mine and get back to you.

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lostatlunch puts forth...

Posted May 5, 2009
Barnesm... can you have a look at this???...

same rule they have at the gentlemans club.

no touching...

I finally got my sister to read WW... she is more likely to read the heart warming tale of some kid with in some pyjama's in Poland in WWII with no glowing firefights, if you are going to have a book in WWII Poland, how can you NOT have a massive running battle as a theme of the book.

Anyway she loved it.. "Absolutely brilliant.. Want wait for the next one".. She has bough 5 copies for her friends, including sending 2 to the UK and one to the US.

Cheers JB, she loves your work. SHe also bought the last trilogy today.

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mckinneytexas mumbles...

Posted May 5, 2009
Okay, from Barry Nelms MD, Board Certified Orthopedic Surgery, Fellow Spine Surgery:

" A dislocated shoulder is painful, and usually renders the arm useless due to pain and deformity at the shoulder. The arm is held at the side, usually slightly away from the body with the forearm turned outward in an anterior dislocation, which the most common dislocation. The diagnosis is made with x-rays, most important is the trans-axillary view (pointing up at the armpit) to determine the orientation of the dislocation, that is, whether it is anterior (out the front) or posterior (out the back).

The treatment is to relax the patient with medication, either I.V. or local anesthetic into the joint, or both.

There are several maneuvers that can be used to reduce a shoulder dislocation--usually each physician has a favored reduction maneuver. In general, the goal is to manipulate the bones to allow them to slide back into position without causing further damage to the shoulder joint.

Treatment is immobilization of the reduced shoulder for at least 3 weeks, then gradual, progressive range of motion and strengthening under the guidance of a physical therapist, and frequent follow up with a physician. Recurrent dislocation is a problem after a dislocation.

Other issues sometimes confused with shoulder dislocation are: shoulder separation (this is where the collar bone separates from the shoulder blade), and shoulder subluxation ( a partial, or incomplete dislocation which may go back in place on its own)."

Let me know if there is anything else you need.

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Murphy ducks in to say...

Posted May 5, 2009
Trinity's younger son had a dislocated shoulder but he is out at Pendleton. I'll see if she can't put in a call to him for some info.

Sounds like everyone else has covered it though.

Respects,

Murph

On the Outer Marches

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Robert is gonna tell you...

Posted May 6, 2009
Never dislocated a shoulder. Got a troublesome knee, though. Damn thing won't bend all the way. Continuous, annoying pain. Makes it difficult to walk the dog with any velocity of interest to a large dog. I've been favoring that leg and limping a lot as I stump about the neighborhood.

Mel Gibson did that dislocated shoulder thing in Lethal Weapon, no? I think that was a Hollywood injury, only vaguely related to an actual injury. Depends which character takes the hit as to how they react to the problem. Gibson whacked it against a wall to put it in place. I suspect most of us would seek the help of a pro and pain relief, although since you wrecked the world, docs and meds are probably in short supply...

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simon bedak swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 6, 2009
Popped my right once a bit when stinkily feeding cattle & they bumped me onto the ground. Magically popped back in before going to the hospital as I was in the process of spraying deodorant upon regularly stinky spots as wife was getting the car.

Lack of mobility, tooth-ripping pain, inability to correctly spray deodorant upon affected area until it pops back in

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andyf mutters...

Posted May 6, 2009
Ive had a dislocated shoulder- broke the neck of the upper arm bone too.

felt like a pressure inside the joint.pain etc

the quacks sent me home with opiate painkillrs and a sling,

i woke up in the morning lying on it. it had gone back in the night,

most of the pain was gone, just felt a bit like a sprain for a few days, was stil broken tho

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Oldsinger would have you know...

Posted May 6, 2009
I've had several. My left shoulder would pop out of joint because of weak ligaments. The shoulder hangs out of the socket (usually with the bone end forward of the body). The longer the shoulder dislocates, the tighter the muscles that support the shoulder area will tighten (with much of the pectoral muscle exhibiting the most tightening). The longer it is out, the more difficult to reduce (relocate).

Really not that painful as uncomfortable and quite upsetting. The body will go into shock because of the trauma. I've had mine reduced at least six times using different methods...from me shrugging and shaking it back in place to having a team of six doctors and nurses hold me down with a sheet around my waist and others holding my legs and good shoulder while the doctor would scoop the bone back into place.

IV Demerol was the drug of choice when the team of six reduced my shoulder. gave me quite a hangover the next day.

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Paul Nicholas Boylan puts forth...

Posted May 6, 2009
I've dislocated a shoulder or two over the years, but, after doing so, I never stuck around long enough to find out how long it takes to heal. All I can confirm is that it is a great way to immobilize someone.

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Quokka would have you know...

Posted May 6, 2009
I did martial arts as a teenager and saw a few knees and shoulders pop during sessions. They instantly go into shock and are pretty much immobilized. They tend to recur. When I studied anatomy the lecturer said that you only ever get 80% tissue healing and the recurrence factor is a right pain in the ass. I saw some really big guys with second degree black belts go down like a sack of shit and they were pretty much out of action in training for weeks afterwards. Like most trauma injuries early treatment and TLC make a difference and acupuncture is a big help to the the healing time and the pain relief.

As a massage therapist I treated older shoulders that had been through the wars and their owners all said the same thing - they stopped doing whatever it was that was causing the injury to recur. Lots of probs with frozen shoulders (unable to elevate the arm above shoulder height) in later life. Not fun.

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Naut asserts...

Posted May 6, 2009
I broke my collarbone right at the shoulder joint, did the ac as well, that hurt, A LOT!

From what I have seen the impact of a shoulder dislocation depends on how tight the ligaments are. If they are pretty loose it goes back in pretty easy and I have seen people continue playing football.

That said I know of one AFL footballer that used to regularly pop his shoulder and he had to go to hospital and a machine would force it back in.

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NBlob ducks in to say...

Posted May 6, 2009
I've dislocated both knees and my self respect. The knees hurt like a MF and take about a fortnight to return to full function.

The self respect was suprisingly painless and the 30 pieces of silver came in handy.

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John Birmingham swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted May 6, 2009
Thanks all. Some very useful stuff here. I'll have to rejig some copy in light of it.

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Quokka reckons...

Posted May 6, 2009
Good on for going for realism. I come from a medical family and get really narked off when people get nasty injuries in the movies and magically jump up all better.

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Chaz mumbles...

Posted May 6, 2009
Jb what about being a method writer and sufdering for your art?

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Therbs mumbles...

Posted May 6, 2009
Chaz - he did that for Felafel.

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'Roach asserts...

Posted May 6, 2009
Yep... not just dislocated but also a fragment of bone knocked off the top of my humerous

How it feels? First five minutes or so it wasn't too bad... simply still too buzzing from the adrenalin etc. to really notice the pain, but I did notice the odd feeling of having the muscles and tendons supporting my arm istead of the bone. Once the 'buzz' wore off the pain was quite bad.

Recovery time? I had my arm in a sling for the better part of six weeks and had very limited movement for a month or two beyond that. A little under 12 months later for all intents and purposes my arm is fully functional but I occasionally get the odd twinge of pain.

Well, anyway that's the last time I'm stupid enough to try cycling through an obvious patch of ice on the road.

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Chaz asserts...

Posted May 6, 2009
Therbs, and?

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NBlob asserts...

Posted May 6, 2009
Chaz

Ol' Leather lungs worked out that he can get others to suffer for his art.

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Chaz puts forth...

Posted May 6, 2009
nbob, Yes we merry few

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savo would have you know...

Posted May 9, 2009
Strong tooth ache type of pain in the shoulder. Joint feels 'sticky' to move. Very limited movement and no strength. Holdingit tightly with the other hand relieves pain a bit but doesn't allow much more movement. Depending on damage it stays painful for ages.

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usine reckons...

Posted February 3, 2010
auto insurance ept health insurance 737 auto insurance quotes %D cheap auto insurance %)

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stacey is gonna tell you...

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Respond to 'Ever had a dislocated shoulder?'

Escaping New York.

Posted April 24, 2009 by John Birmingham
Not much writing will get done the next two days because we have visitors, which is why I ranked it up a bit earlier this week.

Spent quite a bit of time narrative time in New York, which I hadn't really planned, but having filled it full o' pirates n freebooters and raiders and looters, it was kinda hard to get my characters out. Took a whole chapter just to get out of the building they were in.

Now I have to get them about fifty blocks up town, though a small war, and into a den of villains.

I was hoping that I could so in about two chapts, but it might blow out a bit. (The Transition scene at the start of WoC, for instance was originally supposed to run about three thousand words. It topped out at forty-seven thousand.)

Anyway, this is what I'll be pondering while I wrangle kids n visitors today.

How to get my guys through a post-Wave New York being fought over by baddies and the Cav.

I'm a big fan of bringing back the Cav.

67 Responses to ‘Escaping New York.’

Moko asserts...

Posted April 24, 2009
Off topic, soz. Hey, you know how you were asking for content ideas for this joint a few weeks back?. How about reviews for shit?. Books, movies, games, places, music, whatever?.

Havock's got some Wagner for the Cav if you need it. Good luck.

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Matthew K is gonna tell you...

Posted April 24, 2009
Subway tunnels? So long as no bright spark turns the bloody power on.

Speedboat? Dunno much about the geography of NYC.

Or... How many of those corporate towers have helicopters on top of them? Damn long slog to the top to find out though.

A wheeled loader or bulldozer to shovel through the wreckage? It'd take you form point A to point Z without having to go through the rest of the alphabet.

The slow bit would be finding your getaway ride and getting it going - old petrol or bleeding the fuel system, prosaic stuff like that.

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lostatlunch would have you know...

Posted April 24, 2009
hmm.. How is the city holding up? Mogadishu... or dregraded to Escape from New YOrk

Often speculated how a small well-armed & trained unit would go in a big abandonded city against a raving mob.. or indeed a group of well-armed, highly motivated and cautious amateurs

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jennicki puts forth...

Posted April 24, 2009
Nothing a little explode-y goodness can't fix.

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Naut would have you know...

Posted April 24, 2009
New York has to be the best post apocalyptic landscape ever. All those buildings, central park, water, subway, sewers, soooooooo much potential.

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Brian mutters...

Posted April 24, 2009
New York is easy - if you can make it to the water. It is an island.

Scoped it out - when Birmo was asking for stories. Helipads - check. Central Park - check. What condition is the area around the former Twin Towers?

Here's a conundrum. Does anyone want to make entry into a skyscaper? If they're open any where - its one ginormous chimney. True. Windraft in those things is an architectural known.

Wagner . . . .anyone listen to the whole Ring Cycle? Once. Only once.

Then there are real spots.

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shifty-mcgee asserts...

Posted April 24, 2009
I vote for a group of new friends. In combat helicopters. AIR CAV TO THE RESCUE!

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Chaz mumbles...

Posted April 24, 2009
Block by block it could be nasty lots of windows in tall towers for peopele with rifles to shoot out of. NY

post-apoc is sniper heaven

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lostatlunch reckons...

Posted April 24, 2009
Ooops, my mob may not be raving, they are probably raging.

You may have an building to shoot from, but I have an RPG, or the air-cav have a blackhawk with a minigun..

I love the idea of a a small group ducking and weaving through Manhattan with a couple freelancer groups looting the city and the military forces also trying to secure an asset. What could that asset be?

Washington must be also a target for some of the nationaly significant items held there. These wouls be very important America must be trying it is holding on to a national awarness and dealing the the psychological issues with it's radicaly altered profile.

K. must occupy the white house as soon as someone has wiped Dubya's gloop of the big chair.

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Moko mumbles...

Posted April 24, 2009
Blowing holes through walls of buildings will save exposure to the outside.

Well, it works on Battlefield: Bad Company. lol

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HAVOCK has opinions thus...

Posted April 24, 2009
Moko's right, and any person dumb enough to hot the pavement will be toast, talk about fire lanes along and the ULTIMATE from above, if like Chaz mentioned you are sniping.

The Cav simply rocks, even the US Cav, Chain Guns..mmmmmm. I'd also want plenty of smoke and frags.

Building clearance or general battle in a built up area...NOT FUCKING PRETTY!.

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Chaz swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted April 24, 2009
Darkman vey hard to track a sniper in a ruined urban environment

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Moko asserts...

Posted April 24, 2009
Daring acts awesomeness on the roof tops?.

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Therbs mutters...

Posted April 24, 2009
Get a trusty canine to sniff out booby traps and bad guys. Gotta love an heroic dog story. Then if its Scooby and the gang you'd have the pirate ghost problem sorted out.

Yeah, get the Cav, with Havock picking the soundtrack.

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Chaz would have you know...

Posted April 24, 2009
Hmm bridging actions accross streets at say the tenth floor that could be fun.

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Brian swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted April 24, 2009
Imagine rush hour, bumoer to bumper traffic losing all the drivers. Its a slow motion bumper fest. Not like a freeway pile up. Some fires. Ground access won't be bad. Unless you factor in a few tower collapses due to fire - even then, not a Twin Tower event.

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NBlob puts forth...

Posted April 24, 2009
Imagining myself as the leader of one of the Executive Recovery Companies.

What am I after? What is in NYC that is valuable in a post wave world? What has survived the 12 months exposure?

The looting of the Baghdad Museum - seemed a systematic operation with a shopping list.

The Gugenheim? MoMo?

How about Bullion?

Or IP like a simple manilla folder with the Coke recipe?

Rules of engagement for the Cav? Free Fire Zone or stop & search?

Transport would have to be Havocks 750cc 2Stroke offroad Noisemakers. (Can you imagine the tyre spray mark up your back of all the goop puddles? ugh) + small boats - again 2stroke - simple tech able to cope with less than perfect fuel.

You're not going to rehash the tunnel scene in The Stand are you?

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Lobes would have you know...

Posted April 24, 2009
All the subway tunnels in NY will be completely flooded within about 48 hrs of losing electricity.

Best place to base oneself would probably be central park. Getting around the city would best be done by circumnavigation on the river unless you had a reason to go down the avenues

Also bike paths. Any city with a dedicated bike path will have relatively unimpeded access along them. You could get a vehicle down most of those. Maybe a truck on some

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lostatlunch puts forth...

Posted April 24, 2009
Chaz in NY city with all the cover... hard to get a clean round off, there is so much cover. It is not an enviroment I want to be in, I would just prefer to be a runner than a camper..

On the other hand "The Darkman Express" (formerly a FEDEX 747 cargo) would be ticking over at La Guardia waiting for the crew to arrive back with a load of goodies from the National Guard armoury to retail to the settlers in the frontier states. Predators would be great for surveying the back 40, but boots and clothes and general supplies (even rations) would be gold worthy to those on the rush to claim land.

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Rhino would have you know...

Posted April 24, 2009
NWBob ... I'll have you know that the formula for Coca Cola resides in the vault of SunTrust Bank in downtown Atlanta, Georgia, USofA.

Heathen.

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Rhino puts forth...

Posted April 24, 2009
Oh, and Birmo ... when does Havock baiting season start this year?

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Therbs is gonna tell you...

Posted April 24, 2009
Lobes - bike paths would be congested with tangled masses of decaying slouchbikes, covered in slouchbiker goop. Eeeewwwww. No thanks!

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Moko would have you know...

Posted April 24, 2009
...but how much fun could you have with a ghillie suit in central park in a meltdown?.

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Brian is gonna tell you...

Posted April 24, 2009
Lobes is correct about tunnels and basements. Every city substation I've seen has submersible sump pumps. Hmm . . could be ankle, waist or man deep depending.

NYC also has a number of underground rivers still flowing under the streets. Grenwich village has one.

Still we're only talking couple of years here.

Bike paths is a good'n. I'm wondering if bikes or even motor bikes aren't a way to get around.

Horses and bitumin roads aren't a good idea. Plays hell with their legs. Equine shin splints sorta damn thing IIRC - you need to check that out. Stevo was rather careful with his characters, horses and roadways.

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Murphy asserts...

Posted April 24, 2009
Tunnels will be flooded unless someone has restored the pumps. They'd be dicey to scuba through as well.

I gotta admit, I like the boat idea. Slip out to the river, pick up a boat (there are bound to be boats available) and effect your movement to the objective. Extraction might be difficult if the element is detected but then it depends on whether this is a military or a civilian element.

Per Central Park, if it were me, I'd place some sort of military unit there, US or otherwise. When Trinity and I walked through it during the Feb 09 trip, I kept thinking, "Those baseball diamonds would be a great place to put M-109 Palladins." Placed effectively, a Central Park firebase could rain steel down upon most points of Manhattan.

Boat. I like the boat. Or you go could the Whiskey Tango route with a Dodge Ram equipped with a Hemi, lift kit, quad fifty cal on the back and a massive audio system ready to play lines from Pride and Prejudice.

Respects,

Murph

On the Outer Marches

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aaron mutters...

Posted April 24, 2009
use of an abandoned helicopter would be cool as a skin of teeth getaway after a pitched battle to get up to the roof.

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HAVOCK swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted April 24, 2009
Or you go could the Whiskey Tango route with a Dodge Ram equipped with a Hemi, lift kit, quad fifty cal on the back and a massive audio system ready to play lines from Pride and Prejudice.

best thing said all day

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Brian mumbles...

Posted April 24, 2009
Havocks got me thinking. Alleys and garbage trucks.

Cities got these small garbage trucks - they have to fit in alleys. Most of the car pile ups are in the mainstreets. But alleys would be relatively clear. A GT's got enough heft to plow through those property line fences. Fair metal protection. Runs on diesel. Odds are good to find one with fuel. Lotta space in the back. And they have the capability of ramming storefronts.

Several places around NYC you could put military forces. The obvious ones are Ellis Island, Central Park and the bridges. But they're relatively useless in the city canyons ie choppers that sorta stuff.

What part of the day all this suppossing to be happening? Hell . . .what part of the year? Night and winter? Could get big fogs into the old city.

A few imponderables.

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Murphy asserts...

Posted April 24, 2009
Need a cowcatcher on the front of the truck, just like that Dodge in the remake of Death Race.

Respects,

Murph

On the Outer Marches

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aaron mutters...

Posted April 24, 2009
lobes you gave me a great idea. Bike paths + looted harleys ridden by soldiers with lots of firepower = awesome!

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Brian reckons...

Posted April 24, 2009
Murph. Never seen a garbage truck yet that didn't have a dirty big heavy metal front. Look at concrete corner columns in some cities - damn things are eroded by bumper contact.

Garbage truck is probably good for a minimum of 15 tonne. NYC have snow plows? Another possible.

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lostatlunch puts forth...

Posted April 24, 2009
aaron, I respect your vision of Harleys, soldiers and firepower, but you also need naked chicks.. where are the naked chicks?

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simon bedak reckons...

Posted April 24, 2009
Birmo baby, the best way to bust through anything is on Havock's mustering motorbikes driving 1,000 head of cattle through whatever's in your way. Just round up the cattle Lobes' would have grazing in Central Park and the sound of Murph starting up his cowcatcher will be enough to get them to stampede.

The idea of bulls running amok towards Wall Street causing mayhem'd be delicious. Not pork delicious, but something close..

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Sweet Jane Says ducks in to say...

Posted April 24, 2009
motorbikes, horses, boats, and bicycles

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HAVOCK is gonna tell you...

Posted April 24, 2009
ot sure really I would want to set up in Central Park..Its a great FIXED location, spotted on all sides by Building I think and simply too god dam easy to target for hit and run shite....IMHO.

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HAVOCK would have you know...

Posted April 24, 2009
bedak..I d like the way your mind works..NOT SURE HOW IT WORKS..but the end results are fucking wicked..lol

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Ian asserts...

Posted April 24, 2009
After watching the Doco 'Life without People' I would't want to be near NYC subways!

But an pitched battle along Broadway and Times Square, well it would be like the way it was in NYC in the 1970's! Hehehe!

Oh, as for Military units and locations in NYC, The waterfront, if you brought Navy Carriers or Amphibious forces, and or the airports. But the thougt of Abrams tanks in the city...No. Bradleys or Hummers maybe, and no to helicopters, in a skyscraper area they are toast!

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Barnesm ducks in to say...

Posted April 24, 2009
Often speculated how a small well-armed & trained unit would go in a big abandonded city against a raving mob....

...just play Left4Dead.

as to a ghillie suit in central park look to a book called 'this park in mine' which was made into a pretty forgetable movie

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lostatlunch asserts...

Posted April 24, 2009
This is just confirming that the recovery of a major city... even without burnt or collapsed buildings is a lot of very hard work. it is the perfect place fr a rag-tag mob to work their way through the city collecting the premium salvage.

I am flogging the dark man express, locating a boston whaler and docking at Norfolk Virginia to fill it. If the USS Harry Truman is in port, she may be a useful bit of salvage.

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Chaz asserts...

Posted April 24, 2009
Yep accordng to Weisman you can wave goodby to most things subsurface unless they are sealed or have tanking abouve ground level.

I know it's only been a year but I'd say there would be lot of glass on the streets lots of empty dead eyed holes in the sides of buildings plus how much was damaged due to fires after the during after the 'event'. Due to the cloud covern and weather effects at least there's minimal chance of any of the parks being burnt out during summer fires.

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Moko swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted April 24, 2009
I'll confer with Lord Google, B. Cheers!.

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Trowzers reckons...

Posted April 24, 2009
I vote bikes (preferably motorised) and forget the bikepaths except for long runs out the 'burbs - sidewalks are the way to go. Just ask the bike couriers. Surely if anyone knows how to get around a city full of traffic they do (but then they aren't allowed to blow stuff up).

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Brian asserts...

Posted April 24, 2009
Broken glass. Not a big problem in a recently abandoned city ie 2 years say. Only get broken glass if there's been a fire.

Skyscraper glass has to withstand pretty substantial pressure differentials. Not to mention temperature and wind flex. Its 6 mm plus thick. hmm . . .wouldn't expect a lot to flex out. Look around any city. How much maintenance is done on tower windows? Very little if at all.

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simon bedak puts forth...

Posted April 24, 2009
Very very OT, but my Meat & Livestock Australia membership just sent in this week's pig report which is certain to be of interest -

"Pig trade quiet - 24/04/2009

Pig rates were firm to slightly cheaper this week as demand continues to be soft. The seasonally tight supply of pigs is making it difficult for rates to decline, however, there is sufficient numbers to meet current demand. Interest from Singapore remains steady as they try to secure adequate numbers of good quality pigs. Sow rates were unchanged this week."

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simon bedak mumbles...

Posted April 24, 2009
PS havock...Get yer footy tips in..and thanks

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sparty reckons...

Posted April 24, 2009
Hangglide from skyscraper to sky scaper (worked for Kurt Russel although i guess that was getting in, not out).

The Intrepid? (aircraft carrier museum docked on the west side, would make for a neta set piece).

The Stand does it so well, which is excuse the pun a tough standard to live up to...

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Big Bad Al puts forth...

Posted April 24, 2009
In another life when I was in the Army one of our exchange officers was a British SAS officer who had recently returned from tours of Northern Ireland. He taught us a lot of good stuff on patrolling, clearing and securing in high rise and urban areas.

It is probably one of the hardest tasks to undertake.

Every citizen is a potential enemy, every vehicle you pass is a potential bomb. You not only have to be aware of what is happening around you but also above (Rooftop Snipers) and below (enemy/bombs in sewers, subways and underground car parks). In high rise areas air cover is next to useless. Rooftop snipers will most likely hear any helicopter before the helicopter sees them.

It would not be much different in a post-Wave New York. Every person or group would be considered hostile. Open areas such as Central Park would only be useful for insertion and extraction. Same for the waterways.

However in a post-Wave New York you could most probably call in an air strike and level any building that was giving you trouble.

There are plenty of articles on the web relating to the degradation of cities if there were no humans.

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Moko is gonna tell you...

Posted April 24, 2009
Al. Unless you're the Predator with the shoulder fired lasers, big knifie claw thingoes, an expandable spear, dreads, and a light bending cloaking device. Then you rule.

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savo ducks in to say...

Posted April 24, 2009
This cries out of a Pepsi Challenge JB.

The Mini can be cleaned out and ready for action in a trice.

POV=FPS good guy or bad guy or vaguely neutral. 1 block.

Heavy use of google maps street level view.

How about it?

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Brian is gonna tell you...

Posted April 24, 2009
BBA - we're still only talking about a few years degradation.

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HAVOCK mumbles...

Posted April 24, 2009
I;m hoping B, those Cav guys have access to a D9 or better, all armoured up, cars blocking the roads will be a bitch.

As for Urban warfare, we its a CAST IRON CERTIFIED BITCH. But the good news for the Cav will be that their equipment will be better suited to that terrain, as opposed to looters and ferals etc. They may well have gathered up Mil grade armaments, but without Doctrine, thats Mil training in Urban Warfare, they will be in a world of Hurt.

How many teams JB punching up those 50 odd blocks, and the bif Q is, do they want to HOLD the path they have cleared...then it gets very interesting.

My thoughts, well, glad ya asked. It would be push in with the Cav until opposition is met, then fix them in place if possible, drop Air Mobile units behind them, hit them from front and rear, you want to WIPE THEM OUT, not push them back to fight another day or snipe at you.

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Big Bad Al reckons...

Posted April 24, 2009
Brian - You would be surprised how quickly things stop working. Studies indicate that the NY subways would start filling with water in as little as 48 hours. Backup generators would fail within 7 days due to the lack of fuel.

Some of the studies are more than theories. Extensive studies have been done using Chernobyl and Pripyat as a models. These cities that were abandoned "as is, where is." and has had little human intervention since 1986.

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hughesy asserts...

Posted April 24, 2009
Saw a Nat Geographc film today that reckons that NY is built on the path of an ancient glacier, and that is why they were able to built it so tall - all except for a low section in the middle where there's a bit of a puddle of softer material (check out the skyline).

Don't know why I thought this might be important.

Probably isn't. But then again ...

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HAVOCK swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted April 24, 2009
Hughesy..rest assured I will cap the ase of the first cretin who thinks it NOT important...." Puffs out chest Puts on mean face"

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Matthew K mutters...

Posted April 24, 2009
Horses would have some utility but nothing too fine bred, they would get leg problems. You want a plodding animal that isn't a fussy eater and doesn't panic so much. Trouble is with horses that they need care and attention even when they're not working, they panic and run at the drop of a hat and you can't just park it and walk away.

Really, in NY at least, it's gotta be motorised. A garbage truck with only one live axle might struggle for traction when pushing stuff out the way, (and when you get 2wheel drive trucks stuck you're really fucked - they can't recover themselves like a land-rover/cruiser).

I'd look for all wheel drive and something like a front loader with a snow plough on it that could both lift and shovel cars/debris etc. I note that farmers and front line Brit soldiers now use diesel pick-up quads, 4x4 and 6x6. other than that a Suzuki SJ is a super mobile little "jeep" and would get you round cycle paths and climb over obstacles.

As for the SAS in Belfast: They weren't there to wreck the place. The Cav in NY though would have a much freer hand, although whether that'd make snipers any easier to spot I do not know.

But still, the cavalry riding to the rescue? That's an iconic image!

Dropping out of the sky between the concrete canyons rather than riding over the ridge.

JG Ballard is dead. Anyone here read "Hello America"? Much inspiration and images that stick with you.

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Lobes puts forth...

Posted April 25, 2009
Theres a shitload of heavy equipment at Ground Zero. All of that stuff could be put to clearing streets asap.

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tygertim mutters...

Posted April 25, 2009
Kudos to BBA, Dude, you've got it! For some interesting info and photos goto

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=6&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kiddofspeed.com%2F&ei=HAHySYnBFoWytgOUubTUCg&usg=AFQjCNEpVQnOpc-SjuEkQIyAbFxxfflYcQ

Great Photos and an excellent research site for you JB.... Gives you a really good idea what NYC would look like... Perhaps not as decayed but a good reference for your visualization....

If it was me, and I was reestablishing control over NYC, I send in a fleet, with a jeep Carrier, mostly VSTOL and Choppers... A Marine Amphibious Assault Carrier would do. The whole thing would have to be a process, a set piece battle.... First Sniper/overwatch teams placed on high buildings in a grid pattern, using armed Preditors to extend their reach, they would provide intel and control intersections and line of sight streets... Set up a CP in Central Park after clearing of any unfriendlys, Access by Riverine Fast Boats... JB any chance of K "borrowing" a few SBS from the Brits?

Street clearance by approved contractors under the protection of the military would have high priority, and provide funding as vehicles are reclaimed or recycled...

The Fleet would control access to NYC, and any unapproved elements would be stomped flat without warning in any initial operations and then Manhattan would be cleared section by section.... Scouts would be the ones to run into trouble, and the nature of the city would defiantly present a LOT of "Blackhawk Down" problems, as far as ambush by unfriendlies carring RPG 7's... sniper battles for control of desired sections is a given and ops would be long and costly for the good guys... in other words a root'n toot'n wild East town.....

Whooooooo! Sounds excite'n don't it. Glad it's not me though...

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tygertim mutters...

Posted April 25, 2009
Just reviewed the site again... JB the Photos in the section entitled "GhostTown" are especially relevant to AA.... Poignant does not begin to describe the scenes found in these photos. My link works, but http://www.kiddofspeed.com/chapter1.html should do it as well.

Well worth the visit.

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Matthew K ducks in to say...

Posted April 25, 2009
Just so long as the old "Ride of the Valkyries" cliché isn't used.

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Brian ducks in to say...

Posted April 25, 2009
BBA : I think you miss my point. I'm talking about the bricks and mortar infrastructure.

I saw the Chernobyl studies. Saw the show 'After Man'. Depends on the time interval as to how much damage occurs. ANd that we're guessing. Birmo's setting it just after the Wave event so I would think several years.

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Murphy reckons...

Posted April 25, 2009
Havock, if I had a firebase in Central Park, I'd almost surely have OPs on various high points in the city. Not only would I have FOs at the OPs but I would also have commo pukes up there as well.

Oh, just as a self pimping aside, The Limb Knitter will be reprinted in an anthology put out by Apex Magazine. Should be out late December. Here is the link.

http://www.apexbookcompany.com/news/2009/04/apex-magazine-antho-update/

Respects,

Murph

On the Outer Marches

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El Coqui is gonna tell you...

Posted April 26, 2009
Birmo and Guys:

Some travel music while we enjoy the Big Apple amenities post Wave.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RR9N1ia1RgU

(I want to be in the Cavalry by Corbin)

And remember Of you Ain't CAV, you Ain't Sh...!

Who knew that Cav was alive and kicking when he read about this cute but only five nothing female warrant officer aviator and cavalrywoman. That received a medal for valor by providing close air support to troops in contact. She did so by leaning out of the door of her little Kiowa Warrior and engaging the enemy with her M-4.

I know that Captain Nathan Bridges AKA John Wayne would have approved of her.

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NBlob reckons...

Posted April 27, 2009
Hey Murph,

Ball park estimate please.

How many warm bodies will you require to take & hold Manhattan?

Will you be demolishing blocks of buildings to provide clear fire lines? Or at least to deny sniping positions.

You're not up against a standup army, or even an insurgency - rather a dozen completely disparate groups of Executive Recovery Companies.

They will not want to engage with your conventional forces, rather scurry undetected through underground carparks and subway tubes.

They may want to take a shot at another ERC if they think they have been pipped to some particularly valuable goodies.

So if you were tasked with securing Manhattan (Yes I see the Irony) what would you need to take to the party.

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aaron has opinions thus...

Posted April 27, 2009
of course there are chicks - stripper grade with a flagrant disregard for wearing clothes.

another motorbike thing, they could ride them up the fire escape of a high rise ala T1000 in terminator 2. now thats way to get to the top!

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NBlob puts forth...

Posted April 27, 2009
Further thought.

Strikes me that currently AQ & Taliban etc trade on an ability to dissapear into a civillian population. You can't see the nut for the beards - if you get what I mean.

ERCs will stand out like dog's balls as there is (at first) no resident population. For the first period before legit resettlement if it moves it's a baddy.

Then as legitimate / authorised assesment & resource revovery teams move in there will be lots of opportunity for friendly-ish fire problems.

"But you said there was no-one in sector 4"

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tygertim mutters...

Posted April 28, 2009
@NB See Tygertim post 25 April 09 4:31 am post above.

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Murphy ducks in to say...

Posted April 30, 2009
NBob, I wouldn't even want to hazard a guess with NYC. Depends on the size of the OPFOR, their capability and what resources I have to draw upon. If it is just a bunch of bandits, I'd want a full division, around 15K (I say this with some idea of what the CDR in NYC in AA has to work with). If it is something more organized, I'd want a full division of infantry, another of Marines and all the special ops I could get my hands on.

I think I might also want as much naval and air support as possible.

Respects,

Murph

On the Outer Marches

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Respond to 'Escaping New York.'

With one convulsive leap he was free.

Posted April 15, 2009 by John Birmingham
For the past few weeks, possibly months, I've been wrestling with a major plot problem in After America. Can't get ito it without giving away spoilage but it has been kicking my arse something fierce.

Well, in the way of these things, I awoke at about 5.14AM this morning, staggered out of bed to chastise a noisy cat and 'Eureka!' I had the whole thing figured out. With one simple tweak all of the jigsaw pieces suddenly fit together.

I wonder sometimes whether these things are buried somewhere in the pre- or sub- conscious and it's just a matter of waiting them for them to dislodge.

Or whether I just got lucky.

Either way, into the breach!

39 Responses to ‘With one convulsive leap he was free.’

Orin mutters...

Posted April 15, 2009
Inspiration strikes at odd times - but 3am-5am seems to be when it most likes to put in an appearance. Luckily when you work from home, you just get up and go with it ;-)

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Lobes asserts...

Posted April 15, 2009
Did your plot development involve Navy SEAL snipers?

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jennicki would have you know...

Posted April 15, 2009
It involves Vaseline, doesn't it? The answer always lies in the Vaseline.

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yankeedog is gonna tell you...

Posted April 15, 2009
It happens that way sometimes. I've come up with good design ideas while in the shower or watching TV-any activity where I'm not concentrating on that particular task. Go figure.

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simon bedak puts forth...

Posted April 15, 2009
Congrat's on the Alf moment

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NBlob ducks in to say...

Posted April 15, 2009
Jen, I'd like to know more about the problems you are solving with petroleum jelly.

I had a problem with a metal fuel cap that was jamming in the throat of the alloy fuel tank. Vaseline fixed it.

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Murphy would have you know...

Posted April 15, 2009
Glad it finally came together.

Respects,

Murph

On the Outer Marches

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Sweet Jane Says mutters...

Posted April 15, 2009
The Flaming Lips

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HAVOCK swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted April 15, 2009
Jen, please be correct when noting hat an AUTHOR of NOTE, utilises.

Its NIVEA VISAGE... moisturiser ....

and now we need to find out hat that key is. I vote we operate on.mmmmmm..um...RHINO FIRST. I'll go get me hammer

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Paul Nicholas Boylan ducks in to say...

Posted April 15, 2009
Yeah, well, that is all fine and good for you writer types, but what about the rest of us, huh? What about the uninspired? For us, between 3am and 5am nothing happens. Well, that's not entirely true. Sometimes nature calls - but that is a far cry from the kind of epiphany that John described, Orin takes for granted and Murph casually congratulates. True, we, the uninspired, "get up and do it" too, but the result isn't nearly as satisfying as what John describes. The product of our 3-5 am catharsis may be occasionally impressive in a scatological sense, but, artistically speaking, even our best, most strenuous effort is nothing to be truly proud, nor something you would want to show others. Definitely nothing anyone would pay for.

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HAVOCK would have you know...

Posted April 15, 2009
WHAT..its WHAt not HAT

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HAVOCK is gonna tell you...

Posted April 15, 2009
Paul, mine was bucket loads of SOT t 5.00am this morning..I guess most would not what to know about THOSE sort of GREENBACKS...

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HAVOCK mumbles...

Posted April 15, 2009
AHH SNOT... not SOT

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Lobes mumbles...

Posted April 15, 2009
I was up at the crack of when a massive storm blew through. Made us cancel this mornings surf session :-(

With one convulsive leap I was back in bed.

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MickH reckons...

Posted April 15, 2009
It always happens in the shower for me.

But I have to write it down immediately or it's gone!

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Ian puts forth...

Posted April 15, 2009
Know what you mean JB.

I have a mp3 voice recorder. When I get an Idea, I record it, download it, and pray that at three in the morning when I got said idea that I pressed the RIGHT BUTTON to record!

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NBlob mutters...

Posted April 15, 2009
PNB, "occasionally impressive "

Roy & HGs Iskander Yoga anyone?

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Therbs reckons...

Posted April 15, 2009
At those hours of the morning, if I'm awake, its usually a cry of exultation that I could tell the cabbie where I live.

NBob - ROFLMAO!

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lostatlunch would have you know...

Posted April 15, 2009
scammy stuff happens...

I know of a slightly dazed man looks back on the wreckage of his life jots down a few notes about some carcrash ex flatmates.. fills in the blank spots in his memory with some creative license and he publishes his first book.. and it becomes a cult hit.

beats being a wage slave if you ever get around the self motivation

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BrianC ducks in to say...

Posted April 15, 2009
Yeah its scarry how the brain works, my guess would be for sudden cognitive realisation of pre-considerd subconcious ideas, and their rapid emergence into a non linear thought state.

Or put more simply, when you really think on something your subconcious works with you creating and dismissing ideas without them ever reaching you concious mind, when you enter a state of zero sum thought, like the zombie brain at 3 am in the morning, or hangover brain, or even engrossed in tv brain, you subconcious gains parity with the concious mind and things really kick it up a notch, and then sudenly BAM! theres your idea.

It could also be that _you_ didnt think of it, an alternate JB thought of it in a parrallell timeline, and because conciousness is a multispectrum quantum observence entangled into a non linear state(i.e many realaties one conciousness but many different memories) when he thought of it, it became your thought, and so you thought it so he could think of it, to give it to you!

It could also be that being awake at 3:00AM and seeing shadows and a lound pissed off cat, flickering lights and emotional wariness created a neural pathway that brought you back to an original thought long forgotten.

Maybee im thinking about this too mutch

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BrianC mutters...

Posted April 15, 2009
oh and Orin you up for some hawx multiplayer?

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Chaz puts forth...

Posted April 15, 2009
Havock and how do YOU know what moisturiser the Scribe uses? eh?

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HAVOCK puts forth...

Posted April 15, 2009
Chaz, whilst some around here loudly sprout off about being in the CIRCLE OF TRUST!, some, being of a quieter bent could be in the INNER CIRCLE ...thats ONE STEP FUCKING CLOSER!..well?. or

It could hav come to me in a premonition?

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Chaz asserts...

Posted April 15, 2009
Hmm not sure you should be mentioning 'bent' in the same sentance as 'inner circle' but as we're a broad church here I'm sure the rest will let it pass!

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BrianC asserts...

Posted April 15, 2009
Heh

Havock wants to be in John's Innercircle... hey innercircle

heh

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Orin has opinions thus...

Posted April 15, 2009
That could be cool - got a Saitek AV8R joystick for the 360 and have been going back playing Ace Combat 6 & Blazing Angels. Much better with a proper stick.

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HAVOCK swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted April 15, 2009
good to see i don't have the ONLY sick mind....lol

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DrYobbo swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted April 15, 2009
I get the same things occasionally, though usually half-asleep in the shower (and no not involving any form of petroleum-based emollient - it's all about the lubrication, as the ginger chick from Mythbusters always seems to say.) We use bugger all of the available neuron grunt for most of the problems we come to in daylight hourse, let alone the spare parallel-processing capacity up there in shutdown mode. Hand the problem over to the subconscious for some of that de Bono style wacky-funster lateral thinkage. Problem solvered.

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Matthew K asserts...

Posted April 15, 2009
Mm Orin, the Saitek AV8R looks very cool. I've often thought I could totally own the airport shootouts on Xboxlive GTA4 if I could get one of those bloody helicopters to fly straight.

And aren't eureka moments supposed to happen in the bath?

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Abe is gonna tell you...

Posted April 15, 2009
I keep pen and paper on the bedside table for writing down little inspirations in the middle of the night, as I would otherwise forget them. When I used to speculate in foreign exchange for a living, I thought up my best trading algorithm at 4am wrote it down and it was there waiting for me in the morning.

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DrYobbo would have you know...

Posted April 15, 2009
I also hate giving away spoilage. It's never a good look and a man of my social bearing shouldn't need to carry wet wipes with him at all times.

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Trinity64 is gonna tell you...

Posted April 15, 2009
Congrats on clearing away the dust! I really look forward on seeing what direction you went, hopefully not too much anal probing?! :)

Oh Jane, then all the Vaseline story line would fit in perfectly!

As always go in love & peace,

Trinity

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Paul Nicholas Boylan would have you know...

Posted April 16, 2009
Yobbo - I am a man of equal, if not superior, social bearing and I always carry wet wipes with me at all times. So?

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jennicki is gonna tell you...

Posted April 16, 2009
I find inspiration strikes during at odd moments, like while watching American Idol or finding oneself sandwiched between two convicts on an elevator (the former occured yesterday, the latter this morning).

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jennicki swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted April 16, 2009
...and when I say "sandwiched," I'm very nearly sure it wasn't sexual. It's hard to say in that kind of situation. If I'd dropped a quarter (sacred laundry money) I wouldn't have bent over to pick it up at that moment, for example.

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NBlob reckons...

Posted April 16, 2009
I dunno Jen, you could have made their day.

Think of it as a public service.

L there deliberately.

Speaking of felons, on a slight tangerine, you may have heard about a woopsie with some 25 ton of heavy fuel oil 'round these parts recently. Part of the clean up on our stretch of beach was done by low security prisoners from Woodford holiday camp for the mildly naughty. Anyway these blokes came down to the beach, laboured under a hot sun for a few days picking up oil then got loaded back into the mini bus & were returned to the big house.

Yes yes, I am getting to a point.

These blokes sweated for the public good, yet none of them were allowed to have a cooling dip in the Pacific after their labours. How UnAustralian is that? It's not like they were going to swim to New Caledonia with their ball & chains!

I couldn't believe it. Officious petty bastards.

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Brian puts forth...

Posted April 16, 2009
NWB :" . . .It’s not like they were going to swim to New Caledonia with their ball & chains!"

Bob. That was the point. Salt water ruins the balls and chains. And then the prisoners just end up attracting sharks.

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tygertim would have you know...

Posted April 18, 2009
I'm glad for you JB... I had that epiphany driving home from work the other day... Had a compete story (Involving Somali Pirates as it happens) and didn't get to the ole computer in time... Now I have only bits and pieces... Havock and the trireme, Mick and YD's Cohort and the Tavern, and Orin and the speed loader for the scorpion quoting Bellicus Galicus... The rest of you were all present, but I lost it... And what JB was doing with that lot of Somalian Babes? I just can't remember! It was great! And very funny... Arrrrgh!

some really great scenes... Do you suppose GC could script something out of the bits and pieces?

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tygertim mutters...

Posted April 19, 2009
I faintly hear a woman's voice, possibly Domina Birmus' speaking rather sharply: " Iohannus Birmus! If you think I'm having the wash all those nappies, you've best think again! I'm not having it!"

That's the hell I'm in now..... just bits and pieces of scenes that made me cackle the whole way home....

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