Cheeseburger Gothic

All your cool shit are belong to Slim Jim now

Posted September 21, 2016 into Books by John Birmingham

Think I’m going to need my own Staff Group to plan and organise this war. Been getting some very detailed and valuable material in addition to the thread below. So thanks to all involved in that.

It’s convinced me to bring WW 3.1 forward in my writing schedule. I’ll start it after I finish A Girl in Time, which is now sitting at about 35K words of a planned 90K manuscript. I wanted to get it out before the US election, for reasons which will become obvious when you read it. But I can already tell that’s not gonna happen. And I don’t want to rush the project (and have it explode on me, Samsung style - oooh! Burn!). So I’ll be taking the couple of extra weeks needed to make sure that Girl gets all the attention she needs.

It’s now time to cast the speculative net a little wider than Orders of Battle.

One of the things I enjoyed most in the Stalin’s Hammer series was playing with the economic and social histories of the 1950s. I think the cinematic premiere of Capture Von Braun! was my favourite, although I also enjoyed Harry’s walk through London at the start of Cairo, and building my own Hilton hotel later in that book.

In Rome, you might recall, there was some talk during Harry’s briefing (at the US embassy?) of the Soviets flooding western markets with cheap consumer goods, following the uptime China model. I don’t think this would have actually happened in reality, even in an alternate reality, but I’m going with it because I can. So there.

What I’d be interested in collecting over the next few days are any other ideas, thought balloons, wild speculations etc, as to how the economy, society and culture of the West would have changed since the Transition.

Something other than ‘All your cool shit are belong to Slim Jim now’

92 Responses to ‘All your cool shit are belong to Slim Jim now’

Scott Stanley asserts...

Posted September 21, 2016
I think what would happen is all the easy stuff would be invented. Meaning the crazes that we all thought, "Why didn't we think of that"

Reality TV. Some form of Facebook on a primitive internet.

Political Parties devoted to, "just cuz you say the future means we need to do this policy, screw you future progressives, we're keeping it going THIS way!" Instead of left wing right wing, it would be TEMP vs 21.

John Birmingham has opinions thus...

Posted September 21, 2016
OMG. 1950s Facebook. This HAS to happen now.

Turlogh Dubh O'Brien reckons...

Posted September 22, 2016
And with it, online dating. Why go to socials, sock hops and blind dates when you can find a date yourself. Add some women's lib and there you have it, an early sexual revolution.

Dirk reckons...

Posted September 22, 2016
on communication:

Coaxial cable was around since 1941.

Quote from wiki: Ethernet is a family of computer networking technologies commonly used in local area networks (LANs) and metropolitan area networks (MANs). It was commercially introduced in 1980 and first standardized in 1983 as IEEE 802.3, and has since been refined to support higher bit rates and longer link distances. Over time, Ethernet has largely replaced competing wired LAN technologies such as token ring, FDDI and ARCNET.

The original 10BASE5 Ethernet uses coaxial cable as a shared medium, while the newer Ethernet variants use twisted pair and fiber optic links in conjunction with hubs or switches. Over the course of its history, Ethernet data transfer rates have been increased from the original 2.94 megabits per second (Mbit/s) to the latest 100 gigabits per second (Gbit/s). The Ethernet standards comprise several wiring and signaling variants of the OSI physical layer in use with Ethernet.

Systems communicating over Ethernet divide a stream of data into shorter pieces called frames. Each frame contains source and destination addresses, and error-checking data so that damaged frames can be detected and discarded; most often, higher-layer protocols trigger retransmission of lost frames. As per the OSI model, Ethernet provides services up to and including the data link layer.

Since its commercial release, Ethernet has retained a good degree of backward compatibility. Features such as the 48-bit MAC address and Ethernet frame format have influenced other networking protocols. The primary alternative for some uses of contemporary LANs is Wi-Fi, a wireless protocol standardized as IEEE 802.11.

For Optical fiber communication you will need:

optical fibers: created in 1954, so that could be sooner

Gallium arsenide semiconductor lasers: laser developed origanaly in 1960, but you could push it forward I think by 10-15 years.

Quote from wiki: Coherent light emission from a gallium arsenide (GaAs) semiconductor diode (the first laser diode) was demonstrated in 1962 by two US groups led by Robert N. Hall at the General Electric research center and by Marshall Nathan at the IBM T.J. Watson Research Center. There has been ongoing debate as to whether IBM or GE invented the first laser diode which was largely based on theoretical work by William P. Dumke at IBM Labs in Yonkers, NY. The priority is given to General Electric group who have obtained and submitted their results earlier; they also went further and made a resonant cavity for their diode. It was initially speculated Ben Lax amongst and other leading physicists that silicon or germanium could be used to create a lasing effect, but William P. Dumke insisted that these materials would not work and instead suggested Gallium Arsenide would be a good candidate according to his theoretical work. The first visible wavelength GaAs laser diode was demonstrated by Nick Holonyak, Jr. later in 1962.

and these gents would be nice to have on board too I think: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traitorous_eight

Electricity generating windmills were first created in the 1890's so that wouldn't be a stretch either

So in all: doable if you can get a chip to market. ingredients are all there (tv as monitor, specs on cables and connectors etc).

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Thalesian puts forth...

Posted September 21, 2016
I've been thinking about the rise of religious fundamentalism.

Would post-emergence culture be more or less religious? Would they have the stark Christian vs Islam semi-divide that we have now? Would Israel exist in the form we have today?

I don't really have any answers to these questions... maybe someone else does?

John Birmingham puts forth...

Posted September 21, 2016
I don't think you can get that divide without 9-11. You've got the preconditions with the west's need for oil and the installation of the House of Saud. But they need to come here and kill a lot of us to gain our attention.

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insomniac mumbles...

Posted September 21, 2016
Would they be transitioning to a carbonless economy? Maybe advanced solar panel are beyond their reach to start but wind and tidal are pretty much mechanical devices already in use. Would they say no to nuclear or go down the path of more than ever?
Given the Soviet Union is becoming China will capitalism just keep on going despite signs today that we should be doing something different? Will there be some sort of socialist capitalism model that doesn't end in the ever widening gap between rich and poor? Will there be a 1% or will that just be Slim Jim?
What happened to other wars that would have occurred already ie Korea, or starting soon ie Vietnam? Didn't happen or subsumed into WW3.

John Birmingham ducks in to say...

Posted September 21, 2016
Big Oil is in the middle of destroying LA's trams. I don't see them letting solar get a foot in. But I'd like it happen, so maybe it will.

damian mutters...

Posted September 23, 2016
Even as late as the 50s not all oil folks were part of the Big Bad. Southern USA would still have wildcatters and rugged individualists getting out and about into parts of the world where the drilling might be good in search of a plucky fortune. So a character like THAT taking an interest in solar would be interesting.

Suggest a google earth sweep of West Texas even now...

Dirk would have you know...

Posted September 23, 2016
somebody like this guy perhaps: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._Boone_Pickens Saw him on a Dutch tv doc the other day ...

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Rob puts forth...

Posted September 21, 2016
I expect that the English people will look at history and fear for their post world war 2 social welfare /national health model of economics as dead in the water. But this might only bring the left to ferment earlier than the Thatcher/neo con agenda of the 80s and 90s. They might actually do some fighting in the streets and Pete Townsend wont need to write 'wont get fooled again'.

Also pete townsend might get influenced by the likes of Millions of Dead cops and Black Flag and bring hardcore punk rock to the 60s, instead of RnB.

Crustie punks organising raves and house music in the 50s and 60s would be a fun idea too.

Corduroy might not make an appearance in the fashion world. (thank Christ for that)

John Birmingham mutters...

Posted September 21, 2016
Could possibly lead to even MOAR socialism as they try to embed the political culture.

NBlob mumbles...

Posted September 23, 2016
Or more corduroy

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Dave W would have you know...

Posted September 21, 2016
Vaccines, birth control, anti-biotics, big pharma! Some of which leads us through to earlier women's lib, better management of superbugs, 3rd world population issues and designer drugs (cf Rob's 50s & 60s raves).

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jason mumbles...

Posted September 21, 2016
I'm seeing a rush for raw materials. I believe there are only three major lithium mines in the world, all in South America. I'd definitely be trying to own them to control the development of batteries and therefore portable devices. The battle for Australia's natural resources, including uranium, could get ugly with China on the doorstep and no big brother with a nuclear bomb to back us up.

John Birmingham has opinions thus...

Posted September 21, 2016
I see a massive acceleration of an already massive migration program to Australia, possibly leading to some tension with other English speaking countries for poaching their population.

Dirk swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted September 22, 2016
When was the great Greek immigration wave to Oz? With Greece occupied, it would mean in this time line less, or more like boatpeople. Greeks fleeing via Turkey for example. But there are a lot of people adrift I think. Displaced Frenchmen and Italians, Poles and Czechs who fought at the side of the Allies ...

insomniac mumbles...

Posted September 22, 2016
Don't forget about the rare earth metal sources.

Turlogh Dubh O'Brien would have you know...

Posted September 22, 2016
No Germany = no Turks migrating there. Will the other war-ravaged economies open their doors to cheap foreign labor?

Dirk is gonna tell you...

Posted September 22, 2016
Well Germany still exists, but the Turks came in the 60's after the Italians and Spanish.

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WarDog would have you know...

Posted September 21, 2016
I suspect there would be a big push from many sides of the political spectrum to make all uptime tech and ideas non patentable and non-copyrightable.

There endeth Slim Jim's empire.

I say that because any attempt to copyright/patent uptime tech invalidates itself by prior art. And there would be lots of vested interests that want that tech but don't want to have to pay for it.

So I'd imagine that for a while, it would be a free for all in which everything in a non copyrightable knock-off. Essentially it would be the 50s on steroids in the 50s.

And then you would start to see the glimmer of new 21C tech which would be the real gold.

John Birmingham mumbles...

Posted September 21, 2016
I see patents and copyright law failing in the face of this, but Slim Jim's first mover advtange and his natural douchiness will stand him in good stead

insomniac mumbles...

Posted September 21, 2016
With all of the other 21C information making its way back it would be impossible to believe that a full set of patent applications would not have and as such it would be prior art in any attempt to capitalise on it by protecting it. As you say SJD would by being the early mover. Friends in high places would also help.

HAVOCK21 would have you know...

Posted September 21, 2016
I see Australia having more extensive territories.

Perhaps Malaysia, Singapore and hell yes, Bali too. Given an intake of locals, our tech which nobody seems to have mentioned. The US cannot do all the work in Asia, maybe some additional bases too, Brunei and Sarawak as additional Australian states ( territories)

Can see a tap into the labor markets in Asia too.

Given the push by the ruskies, chrissy Island gets a big arse airfield too. RAAF base. Look for Aus controlling the straights of Malacca perhaps in concert with Britain and the US.

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ShaneAlpha mumbles...

Posted September 21, 2016
It's got me wondering about the British Empire.

Would it break up the way it did? I think the British might have learned some uptime lessons and would have pushed for a more Federal form of the Commonwealth of Nations and hopefully have handled self-rule devolution better than in our timeline.

And Palestine/Israel is a whole 'nother level of septic mess. Not forgetting Lebanon, which in the 50's was a tourist hotspot. And with a divided France would North Africa even be a French concern?

And what has happened to the big C21 items by then? They wouldn't have been able to maintain the Havoc or Trident at a C21 level of capability, eventually something vital would go sprung that they could not repair/replace.


North Atlantic - the better sensors developed from C21 would make the G-I-UK gap a killing ground if the Sovs tried to force it. Especially with the leap the Havoc gave the sub designers, which the Sovs didn't get.

With that big a Soviet penetration post WW2.3 all the European continental and British governments would probably embrace a larger Reserve/Militia model than our timeline. Possible something along the lines of the Swiss model, but with a lot more man portable anti- armour.

Australia would be booming even more than it did in out timeline. They know where the major resources are. There would be even more post war European migration. Can't see the white Australia policy being repealed. If they're smart, massive constriction aid to Indonesia and assisting Damiri to consolidate his authority.

Dirk would have you know...

Posted September 22, 2016
Well for starters JB referenced in Rome the Principalities. So an undivided India (maybe federalized) but on a leech from London.

On subs: true uptime research will be used. But the soviets would lag behind in technology I think. So they will take the obvious route: build inferior subs, like Whiskey, Romeo, Foxtrot or Tango, but build them in huge numbers (500-700 hulls). Fight NATO until they run out of torpedo's so to say.

On mobilization: i concur on personal weapons for reservists. I would go for vehicle based AT weapons (pickup with a Tow or Milan) for Landwehr/rear echelon troops at nearby/local barracks. That way you are more mobile.

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John Birmingham has opinions thus...

Posted September 21, 2016
So many good ideas!

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Guy swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted September 21, 2016
The thing about the British is our inate conservatism which combines with a surprising tolerance and liberalism. This is at our best, of course. Unfortunately we can do bigotry as well.

British history is a story of evolution rather than revolution. We change, but we do it at arelatively gentle pace. This is why we avoided the revolutionary excesses of France and the continent.

The interesting issue here is how the arrival of thousands of time travellers from the 21st Century would affect the evolutionary process.

Personally I think the pragmatists would realise that all was up withe the Empire as it stood - plenty of people realised this even at the time. The future would lie in forging partnerships with the USA, Australasia and other like minded countries, while offering the rest of the Empire independence, although trying to manage the process to maintain stability.

Britain would recognise that they were the one European power able to join America in forging the future. Germany was bombed and defeated, while France is partially occupied.

A world will emerge with the west dominated to a much greater extent by the "Anglosphere" than in OTL. It's the English speaking world against the communists.

Socialism as we knew it in the post war decades would have its credibility largely removed when people saw the record of what would have happened (stagnation, strikes, etc). Equally, the crusty Conservatism of the same period would be likely to give way much earlier to a Thatcherite free-market liberalism. Classless capitalism will emerge thirty years early, and the country would be much richer as a result, especially as continental European rivals would be less of a threat thanks to the new post-war map and Asian rivals occupied by the Russians.

Domestically we would see the rise of the teenager faster than happened in OTL. Also, the rise of (gasp) sex. The example of the uptimers would bring forward pressure to legalise homosexuality and abortion, the acceptance of pre-marital sex and loads of pornography circulating through the new technological platforms.

Evolution would come under strain as older people born in the reign of Queen Victoria come face to face with gay clubs and porn mags. A greatly exaggerated generation gap would be likely to develop.

Having said that, most of the rest of the world would happily swap their problems for those experienced by the British, Americans and Australians.

John Birmingham is gonna tell you...

Posted September 22, 2016
On the sexual revolution I tend to agree with the The Rhino that the example of the uptimers might do the exact opposite of bringing forth the legalisation of gay marriage etc. you're dealing with a comparatively conservative and traumatised culture. I suspect there'd be a heap of push back. Although, of course, you would indeed have, er, push forward from the uptimers.

Dirk swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted September 22, 2016
Oh sure there will be friction on sex. But in this time frame you will already have forerunners. Hugh Hefner started Playboy in 53: well he wouldn't have to advertise now. Masters and Johnson started their research in 57.

And sure, you won't be kicking of in Salt Lake city or in de deep south bible belt like west Texas. But Vermont, New York city, San Francisco, Hollywood, maybe even free and rebuilding Berlin with a surplus of 26-35 year old women?

sidenote: interesting character: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Wilson_(Texas_politician)

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John Petherick mumbles...

Posted September 21, 2016
The social and religious effects could be really interesting to explore ... reaction to the Up-Timers could go in so many different ways.

Would Vatican II happen early? Or, happen at all? Could there be a schism within the Catholic Church over future events?

What would L. Ron Hubbard do, presented with future history concerning Scientology? What about all of the other aspiring prophets, gurus, etc. who have been handed blueprints on forming new religious movements?

Someone mentioned lithium mining, where a couple operations in South America currently dominate world supply due to cost of production. The Up-Timers would deliver information on *every* major mineral or oil discovery in the coming century, not to mention 21st century anti-submarine warfare technology that could be used to find other, previously undiscovered metallic ore deposits.

Industrial development is really difficult to predict ... entire industries might not develop as the UpTime information causes leap-frogging over intermediate stages ... from vacuum tubes to integrated circuits in one bound. Future information about health and environmental consequences might have an effect depending on social and economic pressures in particular countries. Asbestos might stay in the ground and electricity generation will look a lot different.

From a public health perspective, the late 1940's or 50's might be early enough to prevent or severely curtail the spread of HIV. Information about broad-spectrum antibiotics might curtail the development of antibiotic resistance, or advance widespread resistance a couple decades.

Dirk ducks in to say...

Posted September 21, 2016
With the Soviets about 500meters from the Sistine Chappel and Pius XII being ill in 1955 (wiki it) the Vatican could do bold things. Angelo Giuseppe Roncalli (aka John XXIII) could be elected in secret to become "Papa Designata" and stashed somewhere out of harms way. And then Vatican II can happen. And even more expanded even then now. Child abuse: no tolerance. Celibacy: there are to many sexual frustrated people in the clergy (male and female) so let the have a spouse. A gay one may be a step to progressive but kick it around.

Agree on the health and safety things. Cancer research and trauma-care get also a kick from free 70 years of experience. Smallpox irradication, child innoculation and polio prevention ... no brainers.

Turlogh Dubh O'Brien has opinions thus...

Posted September 22, 2016
On the other side of the coin, will there be a push towards revival of Russian Orthodoxy to undermine the Soviet rule? Or will Stalin emulate China and just say, "Sure, you can have your bishops - but the state picks them."

NBlob puts forth...

Posted October 1, 2016
+1 Excellent thinks.

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Dirk is gonna tell you...

Posted September 21, 2016
My 2-bits for modern utopia:
If you take research on what drives society, you will get a few parameters that have huge impacts.
1. Education/information
2. Power generation/consumption
3. Sanitation and Healthcare
4. Infrastructure & Housing
5. Political, Religious and economic organization
6. The ratio of primary (agriculture/mining), secondary (manufacturing) and tertiary (services) sectors in an economy
7. Technical advancements/science
8. Specific local factors & world politics

Ok maybe it's good to start with a baseline.
Let's meet Jan Modaal, your average European male in general, your average dutch male in particular. Born in 1910, Jan was 28 in 1938. As 80% of the population he was a christian, would have had 8 years of education between 6-14 (only 10% would have had a high-school degree or higher) and started to work as an apprentice at 15. After his two years of national service in 1928-1930, he married Truus, a local girl from more or less the same background he was.
He would be:
working for around 48 hours a week (mo-sa),
do some repairing chores at home or tend to his livestock in the evening,
Maybe after getting his week's wages on Friday go to the local watering hole (about one in 5 males were what we would describe as alcoholics), which could lead him to going fifty shades on Truus with his belt when he came home (domestic abuse was around 10%),
listen to the wireless, read a paper, or more rarely read a book from the local library, if it was not the bible he was into. Reading a book was rare. Mostly the doctor, the reverent/pastor, the notarial/real estate lawyer, your odd local nobleman/landowner or one or two local business tycoons did that. They were the only learned men in the community.
have three meals a day,
go to bed by 10 and fuck Truus three times a week, creating in his livespan on average 3-6 kids.
In the meantime, Truus would raise the kids, do the washing, cleaning, sowing, cooking, a little gardening, the shopping at the local butcher, baker and grocer (supermarkets were not invented yet over here), look after their parents who would be living on walking distance and be dead tired in the evening. But she was dependent so divorce was not an option. Also the social pressure of the time would keep her down. Before they were married, she had worked as a shop assistant, but was kicked out when she said "I do".
Weren't it not for the war Jan would have statistically lived to be around 64 (Truus to 66).
In September 1939 Jan was called up as an reservist, and was bored senseless in the Phoney war until April/May 1940. After a few days (in Holland)/weeks (rest of western Europe) of fighting he was a POW for a few weeks and send home afterwards. The Modaal family survived the war not being either in the resistance (about 1% was roughly 90.000 people in the Netherlands) or in some form of extreme right wing activity (also around 1%). Out of a population of around 9 million, around in our timeline around 205.000 didn't. For the most part those casualties were Jews (around 105.000), political prisoners (25.000 either shot or worked to death in camps), service men dying in action (15.000), bombingvictims or civilians caught in the crossfire (20.000) and those who starved in the Hungerwinter of 1944-45 (40.000).
Here the first change kicks in: being liberated totally in September 1944 without the destruction of for example Zealand and Arnhem instead of may 1945, would have resulted in around 50.000 less fatalities and even more wounded. Also Dutch infrastructure (Rotterdam harbor, dykes in the southwest) and factories wouldn't have been that hard hit.
So let's say we are in January 1945 and the following things happen:
1. Education/information
Disclosure of the Holocaust. This will lead to a more positive stance towards Israel.
Disclosure of abuse in clergy. This led to an accelerated loss of faith in the church and falling numbers of believers.
Shortening the workweek from 48 to 40 hours, highering the compulsory age of education from 15 to 18, with only a nominal tuition fee and introducing free but compulsory courses for the 18+ generation. Re-education keeps your workers-class occupied, gives them a chance to better themselves, and increases your international competitive edge.
2. Power generation/consumption
The Netherlands now knows 15 years early, it's sitting on the largest bubble of natural gas in Western Europe. So it will invest in harnessing that first, but at the same time renewing it's infrastructure and housing-stock to be prepared for the "Green Revolution". So the new burroughs in Holland, will be built for installing solar paneling by having roofs facing south, so that in 20-30 years time (around the 1970's oil crisis) you can upgrade very fast and cheaply. Infrastructural ducts built in the new streets and upgraded to those parts of the country worth saving, would make a fast outroling of natural gas piping (or block heating) and telecommunication also very cheap and fast for the future. Further gains would be made by building up an National electricity grid with a lot of spare capacity, and going from 110V to 220Volts 20 years ahead of time. This to make electricity production and distribution more efficient and less prone to malfunction.
3. Sanitation and Healthcare & 4. Infrastructure & Housing
Apart from the housing issue, the Dutch quickly improve their road (connecting them to the German Autobahns in the east, and similar schemes in Belgium in the south), rail and waterway infrastructure. Rotterdam, Vlissingen, Amsterdam en Delfzijl harbors are expanded en made ready for container shipping and for Reforger type troop movements. Extra land is created in the former Zuiderzee, by making not only the Flevopolders but also the Markerwaard ready for population and agriculture. The Flevopolders were ready in 1954, the Markerwaard will be in the early sixties. And that extra real estate is needed too with the baby-boom and migration.
Running water, the introduction of a National health insurance and a (abide watered down) National Pension Scheme did the rest to boost life expectancy from 64 before the war to well over 70 in the early fifties.
With the decline of the clergy, anti conception came available in 1950. Abortion, pornography and euthanasia were legalized in 1952, followed by prostitution and canabis in 1954. The growth of the latter was strictly state controlled but highly lucrative.
5. Political, Religious and economic organization and 6. The ratio of primary (agriculture/mining), secondary (manufacturing) and tertiary (services) sectors in an economy
In 1940 the ratio would have been 30% primary, 40% secondary, 30 percent tertiary.
With new technical insights and Marshall aid, production in agriculture increased 5 fold in only a couple of years. Secondary sectors were increased by buying up interesting parts of the German economy (shipbuilding and some aircraft production, Belgium beating them by buying up Mauser/Heckler&Koch for merger with Fabrique National and the Brits and to a lesser extant the French concentrating on buying strategic stakes in the nascent German auto industry).
This leading to full employment in 1948, the Dutch started to import cheap German, Spanish and displaced Italian and French workers. Moroccan, Turkish, Surinamese and Antillian migrants were no longer an option.
7. Technical advancements/science
With the liberation in 1944 a lot of patents and designs came available for the likes of Philips (electronics), Hollandse Signaal (radar), ASML (computing), Stork (enginering), Werkspoor/Holec (diesel and electric engines), DAF (cars and trucks), Fokker (airplanes), Organon (pharma), DSM and AKZO (chemicals) and Rijn-Schelde-Verolme shipping.
Futher investment in education and science helped to harness those patents and create the Dutch Wirtschaftswunder, surpassing even that of the German one.
The Soviets dumping household appliances (toasters, vacuum-cleaners, washing-machines) had a couple of effects though. Phillips would have gotten overrun by those cheap stuff and would more concentrating on electronics and medical systems, boosting research in those fields. And women's rights with a lightening of their workload would be springloaded too. Was Stalin a secret feminist, did he saw this as a way to destabilize the west or was this just lucky?
8. Specific local factors & world politics
8a. Indonesia:
The Dutch are furious about the loss of Indonesia. In an intricate game of good cop (Kollhammer and the Australian government) vs. bad cop (Prince Bernhard and foreign ministers Stikker and Luns) Moertopo got a choice: pay silver in the form of
a. only partial nationalization of Dutch assets in Indonesia (for ex. Royal Dutch (oil), Biliton (mining), and cash crops and spices) and getting Dutch assistance/know-how to build up infrastructure and production capacity. Indonesian markets would stay open for Dutch imports to, the Dutch taking care also for distribution of Indonesian products in Europe.
b. paying out a billion dollars a year to the Dutch government for a period of 25 years.
c. being rearmed and trained by the Dutch government at Indonesia's expense with surplus WW2 weaponry at first and watered down modern equipment in the early fifties
d. granting independence to the Mollucas, Eastern Timor (Portugese) and Papua (the latter as a whole would become an Australian dependency).
or face an full scale invasion like that in 1946, which would have cost Indonesia at least a 100.000 casualties.
Moertopo, the pragmatist, chose to pay. As extra insurance the Dutch found and captured 2 out of the 3 main rivals to Moertopo, namely Soekarno and Hatta. They are put on trail for their role in the Japanese occupation and given life sentences at her majesties pleasure and shipped of to a penal colony in Surinam. Every time Moertopo complains about the silver, he's asked if he thinks amnesty for those two would make for an nice Christmas gift ...
8b. Supplying Israel
Ever the trading nation, but feeling having a debt to Israel for having aided in the deportation and killing of over a 100.000 of their kin, the Dutch decided to help build up the place. Making a small profit on the side wasn't frowned upon either.
Dutch agents all over the world scowered up surplus German, US and UK made arms, shipped them home, refurbished them and send them with ammo and spare parts straight to Tel Aviv and Eilat harbors. Israeli military personnel was also trained in the Netherlands and the Israeli arms and electronic industries given a shot in the arm by Dutch investment.
8.c Europe
Seeing it could not go back to its neutral past, the Netherlands became one of the founding members of NATO in 1945. A breakthrough was the formation of the combined Benelux navy in 1949 latter also incorporating the German North Sea squadron. The Dutch, Belgian and nascent Luxembourgian Air Force also work closely together especially on training issues. And the Dutch arms-, shipping and aviation industry with the lack of German, Italian and partly French competition is booming.
It also was part of the first group of European Community of Coal and Steel in 1946 and the subsequent European Free trade zone of 1947. The Dutch are in favor of even bigger steps, proposing a European Union in 1960. Though in favor of it, Churchill and to an lesser extant De Gaulle are dragging their feet about it, fearing a loss of influence.

Hmmm did I leave some stuff out?

John Petherick swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted September 21, 2016
Of course, the large nickel, copper and gold mines in Indonesia would be very, very attractive to the Dutch government. Particularly since 10th generation nickel-pig iron technology would be available from the Up-Timers. Giving up Irian Jaya would be a tough choice, then, because of the Grasberg Mine.[br][br]
The changed end of the War would significantly reduce post-War Dutch emigration. Instead of refugees and war brides heading (mainly) to Canada, it would be dissenters from the new political and social order heading to ... say ... a recalcitrant nationalist South Africa. The emigration of farmers which occurred in the late 20th century moves up a couple decades.

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Joe mutters...

Posted September 21, 2016
Came to post the same thing about resorces in Aust. There'd be a minerals rush on all over Oz, and then hangover when state governments say "use it or lose it". Big money lost/made.
Plus all the o&g fields would be slated for development, but probably in a more orderly fashion due to technical difficulties in getting NW shelf & other offshore deposits up.
What about Aust/Nz troops in sth Japan? ANZAC - Honushu Plain?

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MuddyRunner reckons...

Posted September 22, 2016
It's perhaps only a small thing, but I'd really like to see Alan Turing NOT being hounded to an early death by the British authorities on account of his homosexuality. Maybe the more liberal attitudes the Uptimers bring with them could alter the Establishment's behaviour sufficiently such that this doesn't happen? He could then go on to found an ARM-equivalent a few decades earlier than happened in our time.

DaveC ducks in to say...

Posted September 22, 2016
Agree about Turing. Give him a safe environment and a flexi-pad and who knows what contribution he could make to the war effort? It raises an interesting point about resurrecting dead people, or rather, to stop them dying?

Imagine George Orwell organising resistance cells behind Soviet lines? Or J.F.K's older, much more glamorous fly-boy brother, Joseph, becoming a admiral with political ambitions?

There's also the possibility of turning former foes? Imagine a different foreign policy result where a Captain Heath equivalent could persuade Fidel and Che, or Ho Chi Minh, to use their charisma for the allied side?

Finally, while the weather changed, we can assume that all geological events would play out as in the original timeline. (not so relevant in 55 and 56 except for a big quake in Greece). But that would change natural disasters for 70 odd years.

John Birmingham has opinions thus...

Posted September 22, 2016
All your Turings are belong to California now.

Dave W would have you know...

Posted September 22, 2016
Disaster response- and planning. Skopje mid-60s, get the people out before it happens.

Murphy_of_Missouri reckons...

Posted September 22, 2016
The weather patterns changed, per Final Impact. Why wouldn't everything else?

Dave C mumbles...

Posted September 22, 2016
Valid point, Murph. Perhaps it did. My idea came from the perspective that a butterfly's flutter might cause a hurricane on the other side of the world, but landing a few extra ships may not have altered tectonic plate momentum or magma distribution?

Dirk asserts...

Posted September 22, 2016
Agree on the tectonic plates and the quakes. ps you wanna get Harry Flowers to the zone too https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_computer

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Rhino ducks in to say...

Posted September 22, 2016
There are many, many places in the 40's/50's US that are not going to welcome these godless, immoral uptimers with open arms. i would expect that there would be a tremendous amount of backlash against a lot of the societal changes ... so much so, that the riots of the 60's will look like play time in comparison.

The children of the 60's were raised by parents born after the depression. They saw the birth of the juggernaut of the American Dream and lived much easier lives than those of their parents and were probably more open to the next level of evolution in society in the 60's. Since all of these societal changes are moved forward by a decade and a half, AND, exponentially disruptive as they are not arising organically, PLUS the young adults of the WW3.1 world were raised by adults whose formative years were spent during the great depression EQUALS massive cultural frisson.

I could see a very real threat to the cohesion of the union.

Turlogh Dubh O'Brien ducks in to say...

Posted September 22, 2016
Perhaps instead of the revolts of '68, we have the revolts of '58? And the likes of George Wallace get a counter-movement going?

Joe reckons...

Posted September 22, 2016
Yeah I can see some serious stresses. But it won't just be the US. With uptimers mainly settling in Sydney, London as well as LA, you'll have 3 islands of 21C bobbing around in 50's ville. Maybe even more of a split between those cities and the rest. And they'll attract anyone who wants a small taste of uptime & be the targets for all the loathing of die-hard downtimers.

NBlob would have you know...

Posted September 23, 2016
Yeah but, I think you overlook the appeal of the Shiny. Parents have jacked up at the "degeneracy" of Young People. Time's tide sweeps away the concerns of the previous generations, they can gesticulate & curse at clouds but 1950 post transition would ( I believe) look a lot more like 1980 than 1960. The injection of 7(?) decades of culture would simply shatter the status quo.

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Turlogh Dubh O'Brien swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted September 22, 2016
I think Hollywood will at first have a field day with the movie possibilities that can be made, but then will balloon and oversaturate the market quickly. Stalin, of course, will not be outdone and will try to export movies of his own (remember, he hated John Wayne with a vengeance). Something along the lines of East German cowboy movies that portrayed the Native Americans in a more positive light vis-a-vis imperialism.

Sports will become a great industry. Jerseys will sell like hotcakes. Will there be a Champions League? There must. The Soviets may have a Fraternal Nations League as well. Will basketball go worldwide?

Video games? World at War type of stuff? Flight emulation? Sports simulation? Massive online RPGs?

Literature? More sci-fi. More alt-history even in mainstream books. Books dealing with the aftermath of the war and the Transition. Probably less Tolkien-esque stuff.

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Murphy_of_Missouri ducks in to say...

Posted September 22, 2016
One has to wonder what would happen with the Civil Rights Movement.

It is all too easy to see a contemporary like Martin Luther King Junior reading about what happened after his death and perhaps coming to a different conclusion about how the Jim Crow South should be handled. Or if he doesn't, someone else might.

Feminism, what happens there? Do Second Generation and Third Generation Feminists take one look at 2021 hastag Victim Culture and have a great, "What the Fuck?" moment?

Gender identity. They'll have a hard enough time dealing with the acceptance of a homosexual male or female. How will they handle transgendered?

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Murphy_of_Missouri mumbles...

Posted September 22, 2016
Apparently we do not have the ability to build paragraphs anymore at the Burger. Separate posts it is then. Suburban Sprawl, something Kansas City suffers from. Does it pick up pace as a result of the realization that things like school desegregation are going to become a fact of life? Do city's sprawl outwards even faster, leaving the central cores a wasteland of the impoverished? How do city planners and managers handle that issue?

insomniac would have you know...

Posted September 22, 2016
Apparently you need to use < br > (without the spaces obviously.

See, I'm doing it now.

Murphy_of_Missouri reckons...

Posted September 22, 2016
Oh, code and shit.
Like this?

Murphy_of_Missouri would have you know...

Posted September 22, 2016
Oh, code and shit.


Like this?

NBlob mutters...

Posted September 23, 2016
Yep.

White / capital flight was only possible after roadways & personal ownership of motor vehicles became commonplace.

I see a global scooter culture, like South East Asia, but more so.

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Murphy_of_Missouri mumbles...

Posted September 22, 2016
In short, I see far less cultural and national unity in a post-Transition United States circa mid 1950s than was originally the case in our own timeline. It will also be far more difficult to paperover such issues with propaganda as was possible in the original timeline.

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Murphy_of_Missouri mutters...

Posted September 22, 2016
One final point, and relevant to the present day. Do Americans trust their government? In the original timeline there was a reasonable amount of trust for the Federal Government. After they learn about Nixon, McNamara, and a host of other issues, will that trust remain?

I think the leaders of the United States are going to have a very chaotic, hot mess on their hands stateside. Their military woes will be the least of their concerns.

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Mark R, Whittington mumbles...

Posted September 22, 2016
I wonder if there might not be an earlier space race, but this time based on grabbing lunar and asteroid resources we now know exist but didn't back in the original timeline instead of science and national prestige.

insomniac mumbles...

Posted September 22, 2016
"...an earlier space race..."


You mean like space lizards or something?

NBlob swirls their brandy and claims...

Posted September 23, 2016
Shhhhhh

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Dirk mumbles...

Posted September 22, 2016
In daily life and in culture:

In music: maybe to early for a miniMoog, but some instruments will have hit the market: peddle steel guitar, the Les Paul would go into production in 1961, but that could be advanced, as would the ES-355TD (yep that's Lucille). Elvis started taking off in 55, but he could use a fitness regime. Does Gina de Marco still have room for extra curricular activities? I think it would be to early for either Booker T. Jones & the MG's, the Beatles or the Stones (middle teens). Cash was just out off the service in Germany, so he could be starting, as would Muddy Waters. The BeeGees started their first group in 55 (and at ages 9 they could reach the notes in Staying Alive quite nicely I think).

Books: Ernest Hemingway should stay out of bushplanes this time around, and have some psycho treatment. Jim Henson made his first Kermit the Frog: @Havoc fast track the Muppets?

On stuff: shame Turin is Russian now; it's the home of espresso machines. 55 was the year Macdonalds started, I would go for a chain of Starbucks or a kindred brand of coffee shop. And a more healthy drivethru

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HAVOCK21 ducks in to say...

Posted September 22, 2016
FKN CAPS LOCK will come in FKN FASTER TOO! I reckon!

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Sparty ducks in to say...

Posted September 22, 2016
well given the events of Stalin's Hammer is suspect Space is well and truly raced -and sadly given conflict on earth i suspect will be at the back for resources -having said that someone will be trying to replicate the wormhole experiment (however misguided) and I'm assuming it does spatial as well as temporal displacement - it may have been a MacGuffin for the books but for the people of AoT its really and needs to be explored. I always fancied the idea of a boomer ending up in orbit- sub would make an excellent deep space craft once engines and a few things were added.

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Sparty asserts...

Posted September 22, 2016
Hollywood wise would cue on Capture Von Braun! People want flesh and blood movie stars - so what if Clooney was a great draw uptime, he don't exist here- and alot of the movies / media the uptimers brought back would play like fantasy - "the wire" is no longer a drama about real life social decay but a fantest about a world that might never exist. Where as "The Rise and Rise of thin James" starring Humprey Bogart as the worlds biggest entrepreneur opposite Lana Turner would be far more real. (and I'd love to hear bogey narrate the slim jim like V.O. about BJ's ).

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HAVOCK21 reckons...

Posted September 22, 2016
hate to say it... but the PORN Industry will go FKN NUTS

insomniac puts forth...

Posted September 23, 2016
Sounds like you're doing it wrong

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Myriads puts forth...

Posted September 23, 2016
On Human Sexuality: The up-timers bring a lot of things with them to the past the directly and indirectly impact this area.

The big tangibles are Birth Control, The massive porn collections that would have come back on the personal devices, and the medical solutions to many STD’s.

The big intangibles are The philosophies that women now hold about being in charge of their own sexuality and pleasure, the mindsets that result from exposure to the internets 24/7 hot and cold running porn, all the social inclusionary thinking that evolved regarding homosexuality, transgender, and so forth perspectives.

And there are multitudes of small tangibles and intangibles also.

All of these would have an effect on the past.

I’ll pull one example: The effect of the existence of the web on sexual development.

The internet solved one of the core issues that most humans feel about their sexuality “Am I the only person who feels this way?” Very early on fetish communities spawned and people who once grew up isolated and having to work out how they felt alone (taking years and decades sometimes) suddenly had a tribe of like minded folks to share and learn from. This ‘normalized’ a huge number of fetish (really paraphilia but the bastardized meaning of fetish is what everyone uses now) behaviors and allowed many people to just be more comfortable in their own likes. These stable communities in turn became the first stop for young teens just exploring their own starting sexualities, and finding there are others with feeling that match that came before and gaining a normalized perspective earlier and thus advancing their own sexual wellness by years. They start having GOOD sex lives sooner, and that in turn gives them more room to explore, and the liberalization of sexual outlooks builds. The porn archives brought back will be massive. Odds are just one person with an unusual fetish will have hundreds of media about it on a personal device will be common. These collections will form the center of dozens of sexual communities on the new internet of the 50’s.

The internet tends to destroy some sexual taboos: Let’s say a nude polaroid of a female classmate got loose in 1983. The trauma of it would be massive to the young lady. Life changing. It would be a BIG DEAL, and be the scandal of the school for months. Flash forward to now, and while a young woman might be embarrassed horridly if a nude was pictured on line, it also sinks into “There are a trillion other nudes on the web, who cares?” too. Heck, many young women post such images of themselves without a thought. The nudity taboo in America is being slow degraded by the web.

Just the fact that there is a boatload of porn that shows people enjoying themselves doing X, Y, and Z will lead people to ‘try’ that. When the Joy of Sex was published in the 70’s it introduced people to ideas they had never encountered, or thought were too taboo to ever discuss with a partner. And emboldened them to try. The future porn and other media will do the same.

The fact that birth control that is safe and effective and that drugs exist to deal with any 50’s STD cannot be underestimated as these two things were the foundation stones of the 60’s and 70’s sexual revolutions. Availability will be the key issue here, as laws restricting sales of contraceptives were (from todays perspective) backwards to an amazing degree in the US of the 50’s. But some company is gonna want that sweet birth control market.

The impact on the culture will be massive and very much a flash point. The huge majority of the population will quietly absorb the lessons and impact and become more liberal as they see how that line of thinking works for them surrounding their own sexuality. But cultural power nodes (The Church, Government institutions, so forth)will be threatened on the public levels as they will see how all this undercuts them in the future and will try to stop it now. Morality police will be recruiting big time. Slut Shaming in the new 50’s will make todays version look like kindergarten,and so forth. The war on sex will polarize into Us vs Them much faster, and be in of those core questions that people have to answer as to where they come down on. (Most will say ‘Us’ in public, but be a ‘Them’ in private)

Our sexual revolution was not the smoothest one, but it was somewhat orderly and managed to absorb each new thing as it came and move forward. Dumping the entire load on a culture at once males it… difficult. It’s not a sexual revolution but a sexual civil war.

Hef and Playboy will never happen. Playboy was a happy accident that grew out of Hef’s ability to exploit that first nude of Miss Monroe and mate his progressive outlook of lifestyle to it and grow with the changing (slowly) climate of America. The climate will be totally different, and the field will be crowded. Playboy was just one of dozens of mens magazines of it’s day. It won. But in the New 50’s How many of those others might snag a nude of a major female celebrity? With a lot of uptime tech loose, someone would use it to get such shots. And of course people being people would make their own for private use and they would get loose (see the ‘fappening’ from a few years back) (New 50’s hacking culture would be a weird and fun thing to see, but we digress) Playboy would face long odds. Though Hef might see a path.

This has gotten too long. But sexuality and culture are in my wheelhouse of knowledge. I can say much more.

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FormerlyKnownAsSimon mumbles...

Posted September 23, 2016
I prob can't add anything useful but it's bloody interesting reading. If i could put my hand up to push little markers around a table with a long stick i'll be happy.
i can't remember in the books (and haven't read the latest one - soz! Should refresh my memory and fix up the current situation) if recreational drug cartels around the world were mentioned. Drugs played a bit part in the sixties. All that stuff from its part in the revolution to how to make it (or its constituent parts) - including all the information about south america/afganistan etc would be there for the picking. Do the US try and crack down on it straight away, try and fix any mistakes or just make the same ones as before? Does someone just go straight into production knowing the greed for it? Does everyone just go into production! Due to the schism of uptimers/downtimers drugs would seem to be a desirable commodity - probably by everyone. Uptimers still depressed about dislocation and downtimers needing escape from current events

NBlob asserts...

Posted September 23, 2016
JB mentioned at the arse end of FI that the OSS had reached out to Ho Chi Minh, if the west blundered into another was on drugs that'd be profoundly sad.

NBlob reckons...

Posted September 23, 2016
But, politics is the art of the compromise. Is it possible that the up timers political & communications Fu would be insufficient to offset their relatively small number as a % of the voting public.

FormerlyKnownAsSimon puts forth...

Posted September 24, 2016
Gah. Right gonna have to do a refresh. I still think some enterprising dictator might take advantage and work on supply. Where there's money to be made . . .

damian has opinions thus...

Posted September 27, 2016
Two-party politics is the conviction that all issues deconstruct to a continuum and that a compromise where the debate is balanced will be reached through some sort of Aristotelian moderation. But sometimes the arsehats are just arsehats and no matter how carefully you deal with them, you will always end up with shit on your hands. Doesn't mean you don't have to, but it does mean it's not a pretty job. Laws and sausages I guess.

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NBlob reckons...

Posted September 23, 2016
Love it JB, like the old days where we battered ideas around till the moved through silly, past counterintuitive into Hmmm.

damian ducks in to say...

Posted September 23, 2016
Surely we've learned how to be more efficient and go straight to Hmmm?

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Jay reckons...

Posted September 23, 2016
Wouldn't there be a run on keeping colonization of African nations a thing? You will need a lot of resources like rare earth metals, so the powers that be would want to hold on to territories like of, oh, say South African (hello diamonds).

It's a continent with major resources and little opposition... Maybee the proxy wars will be fought there instead of Korea/Vietnam/etc.

Dirk ducks in to say...

Posted September 23, 2016
Except for rubber, the Sovs have all the metals and minerals they need. The cia (via a front) even bought titanium from them in the sixties to make SR-71's.

No the Sov's always want access to a warm water port (ie one that doesn't freeze over in winter. Well with Crimea, south of France and northern Italy they have those. So targets would be Istanbul/Bosporus, Suez and Malta & Gibraltar.

On SR-71: would that be developed or are sats the preferred option?

John Petherick puts forth...

Posted September 26, 2016
Satellites have predictable orbits and limited on-board fuel for maneuvering, so sub-orbital / high-altitude aircraft have advantages in being able to capture images of time-sensitive events. It's a niche (presumably) now filled by drones rather than manned aircraft.

I suspect that the SR-71 will be skipped unless some nation uses it as a development platform for single-stage-to-orbit.

More likely is a mixture of UpTime drone, battery and solar cell technology and good old-fashioned lighter-than-air technology. High-altitude blimps or rigid airships with solar cells on the upper surface, radar absorbing skin and internal maneuvering fans that can stay on station for weeks and transmit data using UpTime encryption. Probably not just visuals but also ELINT.

Murphy_of_Missouri has opinions thus...

Posted September 27, 2016
Given the knowledge brought back, one could skip a lot of needless, wasteful development to focus on something more fruitful. That would mean we wouldn't see the development of aircraft like the XB-70.

Drones might be an option, but they would still need satcoms in order to provide real time control, no matter how advanced the drone was.

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Guy mumbles...

Posted September 24, 2016
I think Joe makes a good point about Los Angeles, London and Sydney being islands of 21st Century tolerance (or vice, depending on your point of view). Even today there's a noticeable gap between liberal London and many other parts of the UK. It would likely to much greater in the 1950s following the arrival of the Uptimers, and greater still between a hip and happening LA and small town America, where the local preachers would no doubt be calling for a Crusade.

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Guy puts forth...

Posted September 24, 2016
I think Joe makes a good point about Los Angeles, London and Sydney being islands of 21st Century tolerance (or vice, depending on your point of view). Even today there's a noticeable gap between liberal London and many other parts of the UK. It would likely to much greater in the 1950s following the arrival of the Uptimers, and greater still between a hip and happening LA and small town America, where the local preachers would no doubt be calling for a Crusade.

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jl is gonna tell you...

Posted September 25, 2016
I see a 1950's America where a lot of big shocks and little changes add up to a world of difference.

First, though, let me try out this paragraph code thing to see if it works.

NBlob would have you know...

Posted October 1, 2016
Yep, like that

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jl reckons...

Posted September 25, 2016
Alright, have the paragraph code thing under control.

Yes, I certainly think there will be a large conservative backlash by people who are not exactly enamored with some of the cultural changes that the future brings (some fears would be reasonable, some not). However, some things (like effective contraception) will not be able to be withstood- with all the changes that will flow from that. Also, people in small town America are not necessarily the cultural cro-magnons some portray us to be, and people will roll with the changes with more equanimity than might otherwise be perceived as the case- especially with a yearly crop of conscripts processing into the newly integrated US military who will bring home the idea that minorities and women are not as inferior, etc. as some of their elders say.

I think for the average Joe that life will be an array of new consumer choices, medical advancements, and sometimes confusing juxtapositions of cultural and gender roles. Some things will happen slowly (like Alice maybe being a little less willing to accept the fact that her husband is lord and master of the house), other things will be fast (Little Louise saves up her allowance to buy a Soviet Workingman's Friend CD player and gets the most awesome recording of Back in Black).

What will be interesting is the acceleration of some trends (race relations and the tech society), and possibly the retardation of others (urban decay, reliance on the House of Saud)

As previously stated by others, the world will be awash in data pertaining to mineral resources- countries like the US, Holland, etc. will know they are sitting on oceans of hydrocarbons. At the same time, the technology to maximize the efficient use of said resources will be there, as well as solar, wind, etc. Who knows, maybe we would blaze a better path being forewarned and forearmed. People being people, though, it's much more likely that a path somewhere between wild incompetence, greed, and genius will be walked down.

That is, if the Soviets and their head maniac in chief doesn't destroy the world first. For that problem, we need to remember the most important fact- without security, there can be no liberty.

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jl mutters...

Posted September 25, 2016
And oh yes, very important, people know that wormhole manipulation and time travel are possible! Think about what the Soviets could do with that- with all of old Joe's ravings about "history reversing itself, the dialectic setting things right" etc, they surely have their best minds and resources working on the issue. Imagine a Soviet FTL ship, or Spetsnaz time travelers. Holy crap.

Turlogh Dubh O'Brien mutters...

Posted September 27, 2016
I am still of the opinion that Stalin's meddling causes the Disappearance :)

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jason mutters...

Posted September 25, 2016
I've been giving this too much thought (once again) and I am wondering about the psychological effect the time travellers and the glimpse into the future would have had. I can't help thinking about monstrous death cults emerging to avoid some of, what would be seen as, abominations happening on thr future. One look at the future of sport would probably set the KKK on a mission to destroy the planet.

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Stephen M. Stirling has opinions thus...

Posted September 25, 2016
Keep in mind the parable about the frog -- the one that boils to death because it doesn't notice the gradual increase in the heat of the water.

People not only get a glimpse of the future, but they now know that -time can be changed-.

In other words, they know what's coming... but they also know there's no reason they shouldn't change the outcome if they don't want it.

And in 1942, there would be a lot of people besides Stalin who wouldn't want it.

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Murphy_of_Missouri reckons...

Posted September 25, 2016
I would think, in order for Kolhammer and crew to get the future they'd prefer, they would have to use The Quiet Room and other assets to engineer that future. That would mean having what is essentially a military organization meddling in social engineering in the civilian world.


Does that mean that Kolhammer ends up funneling money, resources, and assets into civil rights organizations? And does he have The Quiet Room running smear ops and targeted hits on folks like George Wallace? I'd think things would get pretty bloody pretty fast.

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Murphy_of_Missouri has opinions thus...

Posted September 25, 2016
I would think, in order for Kolhammer and crew to get the future they'd prefer, they would have to use The Quiet Room and other assets to engineer that future. That would mean having what is essentially a military organization meddling in social engineering in the civilian world.


Does that mean that Kolhammer ends up funneling money, resources, and assets into civil rights organizations? And does he have The Quiet Room running smear ops and targeted hits on folks like George Wallace? I'd think things would get pretty bloody pretty fast.

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jason asserts...

Posted September 26, 2016
Okay JB, I've been patient and played nice and I understand the need to produce quality work but...

I am leaving for New York on Monday and I have planned to work through Rome Cairo and Paris during the wonderfully long flight. You can see the bug in the plan I am sure.

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Turlogh Dubh O'Brien reckons...

Posted September 28, 2016
Would Kohlhammer and the Uptimers, having the knowledge of the US gov't doing studies and experiments without consent on soldiers and citizens, allow that? Yes, it would help fight the Sovs, but at what human cost?


I am talking specifically about stuff like Operation Top Hat, MKUltra, Operation Sea-Spray and the likes.

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MarkatVAVS asserts...

Posted October 11, 2016
Brought this yesterday, and am looking forward to reading it, but first rereading the whole series again, just about finished Final Impact.(AOT great series and every time I read it I pick up more detail.)

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